The Concerns About the Recent Cameroon Imports

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I as well. He's treated me as well as could be expected. From what I was told, he originally put the initial deposit down for this shipment back in 2011 with additional ones since and just now got them in. So, he has taken risks also and had funds tied up for a while pulling this together and I do appreciate that the prices weren't jacked up astronomically. I still feel like everyone would be in better standing if the exporter had done a better job. That's where I see the root of the problem being. Always have. That's the first and worst mar on the face of chameleon keeping IMO.

The exporter could have done a better job. I talking to the owner stating those are coming from a reptile farm when that obviously look wild caught. If this Cameroon farm does produce ranched or farmed chameleons the condition of the chameleons should improve as most all these wild caught West African Trioceros chameleons looked beat up and in B grade condition.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[OldChamKeeper]

You on the forum didn't see this young kid getting all excited showing me his big Meller's wild caught that he imported in June. You didn't see that big WC boy, always watching him and scrambling at the door when he passed the enclosure or snapping the biggest, fattest cockroach out of his hands. You didn't hear him gently guiding me towards another Mellers when I told him I thought that big male was such a special, unique creature and said how much I would love to own him. Then I realized he would never sell him to me or anyone because HE thought the animal was so wonderful. I asked him point blank--you won't sell him to me will you? Nope, he's staying in the store or going home with him.

That's the importer I dealt with.

the superior specimen I bought was in the store unsold when he shipped inferior animals to Laurie's group.

I respect what you've seen and you are sharing. On my end you didn't see what I saw. I saw a bunch of imported Quads kept in immaculate individual Dragon Strand cages that were beat up. I saw the normally enthusiastic and dedicated DemerensisBlue (Bill) just plain depressed as he explained he didn't even remotely get the animals he paid around $1200 for. 3.3 group? Nope. He ended up with 4.1 and a dead one. Plus he has all those bright cherry red chiggers that anybody with a pair of eyes can see with they examine an animal before shipping it out. Those can be very destructive and I'd rather deal with mites. When I saw those I almost passed entirely on choosing one and I'm willing to take in animals with MBD, internal parasites, mites, all kinds of health issues just because I will do my best to heal them up and have rock solid Quarantine protocols.

I saw females for sale to others on the internet, random strangers, that far surpassed the measly few I had to choose from. This "kid" had a $4000 order placed with him and he sent out B grade stuff. So my thoughts are if I'm not on his "special" list of close customers or buddies I'm not going to get a fair animal for the money I pay. That or he just can't find bright cherry red Chiggers and I might buy an expensive Parson's with some, they are only imports after all. You saw the pictures Bill put up. They are not hard to miss, unless you just don't bother to check for them.

 

[laurie]

I am trying not to sound bitter, but I am. For all of you who are saying "he is a good guy, he has done ok for me, he is making amends with me, or what ever other nice things you say," just think about the fact that you are kicking my friends and I in the teeth. We got took, plain and simple. If that gets better, I will be the first to say so here on the open forum. Even if we get something nothing changes the fact that the people trying the hardest to breed these wonderful chams, have pretty much lost the chance. Hard to be sold down the river by your friends.

Also keep in mind if we have new people on here deciding where to buy, you all just told them, this imported is an ok guy.

I really hope this is all sorted out.

Does anyone remember the picture I sent in of the Quad I was to be getting being held by a very young man? That's the owner/importer. He's just a young kid.

I've been in his store several times. The enclosures are immaculate. Lots and lots and lots of foliage filling the enclosures right up to the top.

We don't know what agreements he had with other retailers.

You on the forum didn't see this young kid getting all excited showing me his big Meller's wild caught that he imported in June. You didn't see that big WC boy, always watching him and scrambling at the door when he passed the enclosure or snapping the biggest, fattest cockroach out of his hands. You didn't hear him gently guiding me towards another Mellers when I told him I thought that big male was such a special, unique creature and said how much I would love to own him. Then I realized he would never sell him to me or anyone because HE thought the animal was so wonderful. I asked him point blank--you won't sell him to me will you? Nope, he's staying in the store or going home with him.

That's the importer I dealt with.

I see a lot of good with this importer. Maybe he doesn't understand some of the long-term fall out from some of his business decisions. At the same time, the superior specimen I bought was in the store unsold when he shipped inferior animals to Laurie's group.

I talked to him last night. He's always done right by me.

I as well. He's treated me as well as could be expected. From what I was told, he originally put the initial deposit down for this shipment back in 2011 with additional ones since and just now got them in. So, he has taken risks also and had funds tied up for a while pulling this together and I do appreciate that the prices weren't jacked up astronomically. I still feel like everyone would be in better standing if the exporter had done a better job. That's where I see the root of the problem being. Always have. That's the first and worst mar on the face of chameleon keeping IMO.

I have had ups and downs with this retailer. However we are a community on this Forums and I read your pain and of lately this retailer has attempted to make amends with me. I have got my fingers crossed for you. If your group is to far gone so be it. I prefer not to think that way.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[MelissaB]

I agree with what you, Bill and OldChamKeeper are saying, Laurie. I've been watching this and reading at both threads.
What the importer did was flat out wrong, there is no way to justify it. He made an an agreement, took your money, and then didn't deliver what was promised. Complete BS in my opinion. It would be an entirely different matter if ALL the animals he had up for sale were "B" grade animals. But to take your money, promise you the BEST out of the shipment and then give you the animals he didn't think were going to make it or sell, not to mention infested with visible parasites and the WRONG sex. I, for one, won't be spending any of my money with him, unless he makes this right.

 

[laurie]

I agree with what you, Bill and OldChamKeeper are saying, Laurie. I've been watching this and reading at both threads.
What the importer did was flat out wrong, there is no way to justify it. He made an an agreement, took your money, and then didn't deliver what was promised. Complete BS in my opinion. It would be an entirely different matter if ALL the animals he had up for sale were "B" grade animals. But to take your money, promise you the BEST out of the shipment and then give you the animals he didn't think were going to make it or sell, not to mention infested with visible parasites and the WRONG sex. I, for one, won't be spending any of my money with him, unless he makes this right.

Thanks for the support, it helps.

 

[Mike Fisher]

For all of you who are saying "he is a good guy, he has done ok for me, he is making amends with me, or what ever other nice things you say," just think about the fact that you are kicking my friends and I in the teeth.

Sorry, I'm not defending what he did to you guys, just relaying my own personal experience. I'm sure you'd like to spread the word and put him out of business. I can understand why you are angry.

I won't post on this thread anymore, sorry again.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

There is no debate what this retailer did wrong. I am just attempting to salvage the situation and have him make amends.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Trace]

I do not know the importer or retailer in question, so if dude is not a member here then he is not going to know about this thread. I think this thread is an interesting and informative one to newer members in the hobby because of the general importation and selling discussions. Many people don’t know that process.

However, if you want dude to fix the situation then you are going to need to move this to the BOI. We have rules about these kinds of topics here and this thread will get closed otherwise.

 

[laurie]

I do not know the importer or retailer in question, so if dude is not a member here then he is not going to know about this thread. I think this thread is an interesting and informative one to newer members in the hobby because of the general importation and selling discussions. Many people don’t know that process.

However, if you want dude to fix the situation then you are going to need to move this to the BOI. We have rules about these kinds of topics here and this thread will get closed otherwise.

As far as I know he is not and have never been a part of this forum. We are not naming names, just discussing the import and the problems that arrive for some and not for others. I am not going to BOI as I don't see doing that until I have tried to work it out. I think a lot of us are interested about how it will work out. This is a discussion for us, not for the importer.

Is that not allowed?

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I do not know the importer or retailer in question, so if dude is not a member here then he is not going to know about this thread. I think this thread is an interesting and informative one to newer members in the hobby because of the general importation and selling discussions. Many people don’t know that process.

However, if you want dude to fix the situation then you are going to need to move this to the BOI. We have rules about these kinds of topics here and this thread will get closed otherwise.

I'd have to say we have really gone out of our way to not name names on the thread. This is a multi purpose thread. Many here are discussing the values of these high priced animals we all come to this forum to discuss sir. In that discussion we are both talking about a horrid experience and enlightening others about the pitfalls in buying imports. The forums have also been used to sell animals to this very special group of people we all call chameleon keepers. So discussing things like when a sale goes bad, especially when the seller is catering to this unique community, is a discussion well worth having.

After decades of keeping chameleons, this is the type of discussion that has to be had concerning where we spend our time and money, and you can only have this discussion with other chameleon keepers. So please don't remove this topic. It would have far reaching consequences such as discouraging people sharing where they get healthy animals and where not to go.

As for the BoI. Since Laurie was the one who made the purchase (despite it being a collective effort) only she per the rules there can initiate a post. This discussion is all I have to work with and share.

 

[Trace]

I said I’m not against a general discussion about importing and how it might potentially effect some changes to the whole process. I’ve been in this hobby just as long or longer than some of you guys and if that can happen then I’m all for it.

What I’m starting to see are members demanding amends and I’m just pointing out that those kinds of threads are not permitted here. I’m just giving you guys a warning that if that line is crossed then I will have no choice but to close and delete the thread. I don’t make the rules here, I just follow them.

Carry on.

 

[GCash]

I said I’m not against a general discussion about importing and how it might potentially effect some changes to the whole process. I’ve been in this hobby just as long or longer than some of you guys and if that can happen then I’m all for it.

What I’m starting to see are members demanding amends and I’m just pointing out that those kinds of threads are not permitted here. I’m just giving you guys a warning that if that line is crossed then I will have no choice but to close and delete the thread. I don’t make the rules here, I just follow them.

Carry on.

Exactly. Contributing to a conversation in hopes it could possibly effect change and grow our "hobby" in a positive direction is the sole intent of my last post. Not to kick anyone, especially you guys in the collective, in the teeth. And to remind us that we are all, including said importer, in the same boat and dependent on each other. He is at the mercy of the exporters whim just as we are and if we completely alienate the very few people who have worked and tied up their finances for so long, and are responsible for giving us the opportunity to work with these species, however slight that may be, for the first time in how many years? We may start to see even longer lag times between imports, if at all because they don't want the headache of being stuck in the middle. And time is of the essence. In a perfect world, I'd love to see an importer pay what the exporter asks and tell him if we get quality animals that have been cared for, another x% of money is coming his way. And these fewer, quality new bloodlines go only to breeders that won't mind paying the higher prices, who then supply the "pet" demand with CBB. Talk about a "pipe dream".

I'm of the opinion to work with someone rather than against. We can get alot farther that way. Even the people who get large breeding groups established will still need the importers and exporters at some point for fresh blood. We are all connected so much closer than most people are aware. If they were, we'd have a lot less people screwing over each other.

I'm also sick and disgusted of still seeing these beautiful creatures barreled en mass during importation and having the bite marks and injuries to paint the horrific pictures of what they went through. What year is this and what does it say about the intelligence and empathy of humanity? There has to be a better way.

And as for captive breeding not saving a species from extinction. I would utterly hate to see any species wild population become so displaced it becomes extinct. But given the choice between captive bred "mutants" and total extinction, I'll happily take the mutants. As much as humanity would like to claim dominion over nature we are in fact a product of it. And I believe what we are seeing with our "hobby" is a symbiotic relationship forming. Species themselves finding footholds so life can continue just in case their natural range gets completely wiped out. I believe there is merit to what the breeders are hoping to accomplish. And I Thank you all.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Exactly. Contributing to a conversation in hopes it could possibly effect change and grow our "hobby" in a positive direction is the sole intent of my last post. Not to kick anyone, especially you guys in the collective, in the teeth. And to remind us that we are all, including said importer, in the same boat and dependent on each other. He is at the mercy of the exporters whim just as we are and if we completely alienate the very few people who have worked and tied up their finances for so long, and are responsible for giving us the opportunity to work with these species, however slight that may be, for the first time in how many years? We may start to see even longer lag times between imports, if at all because they don't want the headache of being stuck in the middle. And time is of the essence. In a perfect world, I'd love to see an importer pay what the exporter asks and tell him if we get quality animals that have been cared for, another x% of money is coming his way. And these fewer, quality new bloodlines go only to breeders that won't mind paying the higher prices, who then supply the "pet" demand with CBB. Talk about a "pipe dream".

Then why is this model happening in Europe and starting to progress to happen in the USA. The Trioceros quadricornis groups has had setbacks. However with the recent accomplished breeding of Furcifer campani people have been buying more Furcifer campani to start breeding programs from that species along with other Madagascar species in the works. If the Trioceros quadricornis group received the Trioceros quadricornis they were supposed to receive we would be hearing a much happier story.

I'm of the opinion to work with someone rather than against. We can get alot farther that way. Even the people who get large breeding groups established will still need the importers and exporters at some point for fresh blood. We are all connected so much closer than most people are aware. If they were, we'd have a lot less people screwing over each other.

Well stated as is why some of the Forums member were expecting amends to be made. I think amends are going to be made.

I'm also sick and disgusted of still seeing these beautiful creatures barreled en mass during importation and having the bite marks and injuries to paint the horrific pictures of what they went through. What year is this and what does it say about the intelligence and empathy of humanity? There has to be a better way.

This from my understanding is a new farm and we are in a new decade. No we should not stand for chameleons arriving in this condition. Trioceros arriving in this condition is a huge problem that should be corrected. They should never have left the farm in the packing export boxes in those conditions or in my opinion received CITES papers. A good place to demand that these standards are kept is on these Chameleons Forums.

And as for captive breeding not saving a species from extinction. I would utterly hate to see any species wild population become so displaced it becomes extinct. But given the choice between captive bred "mutants" and total extinction, I'll happily take the mutants. As much as humanity would like to claim dominion over nature we are in fact a product of it. And I believe what we are seeing with our "hobby" is a symbiotic relationship forming. Species themselves finding footholds so life can continue just in case their natural range gets completely wiped out. I believe there is merit to what the breeders are hoping to accomplish. And I Thank you all.

I have always stated that keeping wild species in captivity is a privileged of accomplished conservation. If a species is an endangered species we have not earned the privileged of keeping that species in captivity yet. I think we are nowhere near the point where chameleons in the hobby are going to cause extinctions though. Although there is concern as a couple of well known African chameleon species in the hobby that have recently listed as endangered species Kinyongia matschiei and Kinyongia multituberculata. These species require breeding programs if they are going to continue in the hobby.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[jajeanpierre]

Aw, Laurie, that's not the message I meant to convey. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry if you felt betrayed by me.

I guess I was just hoping that it was all a big misunderstanding that would be straightened out and made right.

The pictures of the chameleons Bill posted looked nothing like mine, and mine was available right up until I picked him up less than a week ago, long after yours had shipped. I know that. I included that little bit of information at the end of my post.

My Quad should have gone to your group. Somehow you will have access to him one way or another. (((Hugs))) Janet

I am trying not to sound bitter, but I am. For all of you who are saying "he is a good guy, he has done ok for me, he is making amends with me, or what ever other nice things you say," just think about the fact that you are kicking my friends and I in the teeth. We got took, plain and simple. If that gets better, I will be the first to say so here on the open forum. Even if we get something nothing changes the fact that the people trying the hardest to breed these wonderful chams, have pretty much lost the chance. Hard to be sold down the river by your friends.

Also keep in mind if we have new people on here deciding where to buy, you all just told them, this imported is an ok guy.

 

[laurie]

Ok guys, I sometimes lose my cool. I am just tired. I want this all over, I am pretty unhappy and can't really see a way out. I know I can't be given something that isnt there. The sadness of what we are doing to these wonderful chams. All of us, me for wanting them so much, all the other people in the line, importers, exporters, people catching the chams. I just wish I had some answers. I am starting to question if it is right for me to have chameleons. If we didn't want then then, would they be left alone? No, with the lost of habatit they are not safe there in their homes either. Just a microcosm of our whole world. I am feeling a bit defeated. Sorry I attacked attacked you guys. Just a bit overwhelmed.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Most would not know this but I'll share.

For decades, back to when I was not even ten years old, I had to rely on crappy books (Tetrapress) or what little I could get from a library when it came to keeping these neat lizards. I lost a few...

I started asking questions. Back then there was no internet. I would hang out at the local pet shops and wait for a customer to come in buying reptile foods or products and then hit them up for info. Some were helpful. That's how it was back then.

Once I learned about the importation issues a lot made sense. As I got into the pet industry I learned about the importation side. I was a tad shocked.


So fast forward to now.

I have kept to myself mostly over the years. I'm just a dedicated hobbyist. I specialized with tree boas and chameleons. I've met a few nice people over the years via this internet thing, but more than not were just not worth talking to. Kinda like most importers.

Now while I agree in order to keep my hobby going I need importers, I will never agree that I need an importer who can't provide me with what was paid for when that was within their ability to do so. If the whole shipment was crap, that happens. When the whole shipment is not, I would expect that importer to follow through and provide the quality animals paid for. Importers that can't do that should not be patronized or tolerated by any of us who care about this hobby. That's the lesson, the purpose of this topic really.

When we visit a pet store and take a look at their animals, we have the option to either buy or not buy that animal. Pet stores that don't have healthy animals or decent customer service fade away. Importers are different. Especially when they have a retail store. They can use the fact that a bunch of animals have been paid for already to get a big order and cherry pick the best for their needs. Those are the kinds of "Wolf in sheep's clothing" businesses that need to be avoided. If only since the business will continue to make money off of animals not really in a condition to be sold.


Now, I was thrilled when Laurie "recruited" me into the Quad project to help get these animal well established like Panther's. For a guy who as a child used to wait at pet stores to find other keepers just to ask questions of them and then now via the internet put all those years of experience into helping establish a species in the hobby was a treat. I'm a Parson keeper at heart. Make no mistake about that. However I've always enjoyed these Quads and I did have the room to help out and contribute.

When I heard we as a group could go in on a big shipment for "best picks" I really felt that even at the importer level we were doing something constructive, that the importer saw the importance of this group of dedicated people getting quality imports so that we could make a small difference in the hobby. Instead nothing has changed.

The importer made max profits, quality animals got into the hands of those who have little exp. or little desire to actually breed them, and the dedicated keepers who have huge amounts of money invested in reptile rooms and equipment who would have made sure the imports are taken to a reptile vet and given solid care for the first few months, they got burned with B grade animals some of us couldn't help despite our willingness to do just that.

One last thing folks, as the moderator asked, don't make any comments for "making amends" or the such. I'd hate to see the topic deleted since this has been a good discussion and I know many new keepers are reading this. They might learn some things that decades ago I couldn't learn without a place like this forum.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Ok guys, I sometimes lose my cool. I am just tired. I want this all over, I am pretty unhappy and can't really see a way out. I know I can't be given something that isnt there. The sadness of what we are doing to these wonderful chams. All of us, me for wanting them so much, all the other people in the line, importers, exporters, people catching the chams. I just wish I had some answers. I am starting to question if it is right for me to have chameleons. If we didn't want then then, would they be left alone? No, with the lost of habatit they are not safe there in their homes either. Just a microcosm of our whole world. I am feeling a bit defeated. Sorry I attacked attacked you guys. Just a bit overwhelmed.

Well I can see why Arid Arbate gave up. Don't you go down that road. I'm helping best I can. I do plan on sending you a pair from my first clutch no charge. I plan on crossing Ming with the new female import once she gains weight and doesn't have the ability to give him multiple STD's

 

[GCash]

Most would not know this but I'll share.

For decades, back to when I was not even ten years old, I had to rely on crappy books (Tetrapress) or what little I could get from a library when it came to keeping these neat lizards. I lost a few...

I started asking questions. Back then there was no internet. I would hang out at the local pet shops and wait for a customer to come in buying reptile foods or products and then hit them up for info. Some were helpful. That's how it was back then.

Once I learned about the importation issues a lot made sense. As I got into the pet industry I learned about the importation side. I was a tad shocked.


So fast forward to now.

I have kept to myself mostly over the years. I'm just a dedicated hobbyist. I specialized with tree boas and chameleons. I've met a few nice people over the years via this internet thing, but more than not were just not worth talking to. Kinda like most importers.

You and me both, brother. Sounds like you're describing a west coast version of my younger days. Looks like you beat me out of the wilderness though. Like I said, we're a lot more connected than most realize.

Now for a little blast from the past to lighten things up. Remember any of these?

 

[OldChamKeeper]

You have more of your collection intact than I do. I had nearly all of that and more. I even had some books from England that were field studies from the early 1900's. The drawings were nice. What I had really wanted were the temp recordings since back then finding out about the animals habitat was key. I read more about Madagascar itself than the animals to gleam info I could use to keep my new hobby alive back then. Nice collection you have.

 

[GCash]

Ok guys, I sometimes lose my cool. I am just tired. I want this all over, I am pretty unhappy and can't really see a way out. I know I can't be given something that isnt there. The sadness of what we are doing to these wonderful chams. All of us, me for wanting them so much, all the other people in the line, importers, exporters, people catching the chams. I just wish I had some answers. I am starting to question if it is right for me to have chameleons. If we didn't want then then, would they be left alone? No, with the lost of habatit they are not safe there in their homes either. Just a microcosm of our whole world. I am feeling a bit defeated. Sorry I attacked attacked you guys. Just a bit overwhelmed.

Illegitimi non carborundum. (Even if I'm perceived as one. I truly appreciate everything the quad collective has done/is doing for our "hobby" and for bringing as much of the intellectual, honorable and caring element as they have seemed to do. Please don't give up!)