The Concerns About the Recent Cameroon Imports

[GCash]

You have more of your collection intact than I do. I had nearly all of that and more. I even had some books from England that were field studies from the early 1900's. The drawings were nice. What I had really wanted were the temp recordings since back then finding out about the animals habitat was key. I read more about Madagascar itself than the animals to gleam info I could use to keep my new hobby alive back then. Nice collection you have.

Thank you. That's just the pertinent part that could fit reasonably in the frame. I still cherish my reference library however outdated it may seem to be. Don't get me started on my Edition Chimaira, Serpent's Tale and Krieger Publishing section. That's a whole 'nother love affair there. Sounds like you've done some impressive digging as well. Ok, enough misplaced geeking on this thread. You just struck a nerve. Thanks again.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

That is not to shabby of a collection. I have got most of those and some you have not got. When the CIN ended I got rid of some of my CIN collection though.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[GCash]

That is not to shabby of a collection. I have got most of those and some you have not got. When the CIN ended I got rid of some of my CIN collection though.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your CiNs. They and The Vivarium hold a special place in my heart. I was devastated when they were discontinued. You know what they say: Nothing gold can stay.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your CiNs. They and The Vivarium hold a special place in my heart. I was devastated when they were discontinued. You know what they say: Nothing gold can stay.

That is a bogus saying. That statement is not always accurate.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[fluxlizard]

You know, people kind of rip on the old chameleon books, but I can't figure out why.

For example, when I look at TFH chameleons volume 1, temperatures appear about right to me. I still enjoy browsing that volume sometimes. That book was a gold mine to me when it was published.

My favorite lizard book of all time is "Lizards in Captivity" another TFH book. I've enjoyed flipping through it for over 30 years now.

What strikes me nowadays is how relevant a lot of the advice is in some of the older books, but there is also a level of assumption about the reader's reasoning that does not spell all the little details out. Advice to keep lizards outdoors except during winter and the importance of sunlight was spot on, but it wasn't until years later that I began doing so.

Another mag I miss was "reptile and amphibian magazine". REPTILES just isn't the same compared to that and the vivarium. For that matter, it has really gone downhill when compared to itself 20 years ago. I've had a subscription since the first issue appeared. Articles in the 1990s were much longer and more in-depth than today's, and the magazine was much thicker too.

 

[GCash]

That is a bogus saying. That statement is not always accurate.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Never said always. But in these cases they were doomed because their demographic was too small to keep them going. Not enough people interested in doing things intelligently. It seems like everything has to be watered down for the masses. As a gauge, just look at the Discovery/ Learning/ NatGeo channels that used to have fairly decent and informative documentaries when I was younger, however repetitive and cliche they may have been, now are all Bigfoot, Mermaids, and Aliens insinuating nature isn't interesting enough even though they barely scratched the surface. Ah, the age of reality TV.

Thanks to all who keep this forum going so we can find kindred spirits.

Sorry to all following this thread for my soapbox tangent.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

So I'm doing some homework on the BOI.

I came across a number of complaints regarding this importer, and then I found a thread that essentially shows this importer is directly tied to Backwater reptiles. This is significant since Backwater is showing a super cherry looking imported female that I wish had been included in the shipment to us in the quad collective who paid for "the best picks".

So in looking up more about Backwater reptiles on the BOI I find not only a huge amount of complaints, but I start to look at the timing of the complaints and compare them to when the importer was getting a bunch.

Surprise, the importer was first getting the complaints, then Backwater appears and all the complaints go to Backwater. I'm curious if anybody actually knows what type of business relationship these "two" companies have?

I was tempted, just tempted mind you, to actually purchase that female and as such looked them up. Now I'm asking those of you here about it before I do something stupid like spending money with them. Are they the same owners/people?

 

[GCash]

You know, people kind of rip on the old chameleon books, but I can't figure out why.

For example, when I look at TFH chameleons volume 1, temperatures appear about right to me. I still enjoy browsing that volume sometimes. That book was a gold mine to me when it was published.

My favorite lizard book of all time is "Lizards in Captivity" another TFH book. I've enjoyed flipping through it for over 30 years now.

What strikes me nowadays is how relevant a lot of the advice is in some of the older books, but there is also a level of assumption about the reader's reasoning that does not spell all the little details out. Advice to keep lizards outdoors except during winter and the importance of sunlight was spot on, but it wasn't until years later that I began doing so.

Another mag I miss was "reptile and amphibian magazine". REPTILES just isn't the same compared to that and the vivarium. For that matter, it has really gone downhill when compared to itself 20 years ago. I've had a subscription since the first issue appeared. Articles in the 1990s were much longer and more in-depth than today's, and the magazine was much thicker too.

I must refrain, but good to know you all are out there.

I kid you not. The minute I submitted my last reply, a segment about chameleons aired on NatGeo Wild's World's deadliest. As a chameleon projected his tongue to capture food, they reported that he "unleashes Hell, annihilating his prey". Case in point. Must be sensationalized because they aren't interesting enough. Where's David Attenborough when you need him?

 

[GCash]

So I'm doing some homework on the BOI.

I came across a number of complaints regarding this importer, and then I found a thread that essentially shows this importer is directly tied to Backwater reptiles. This is significant since Backwater is showing a super cherry looking imported female that I wish had been included in the shipment to us in the quad collective who paid for "the best picks".

So in looking up more about Backwater reptiles on the BOI I find not only a huge amount of complaints, but I start to look at the timing of the complaints and compare them to when the importer was getting a bunch.

Surprise, the importer was first getting the complaints, then Backwater appears and all the complaints go to Backwater. I'm curious if anybody actually knows what type of business relationship these "two" companies have?

I was tempted, just tempted mind you, to actually purchase that female and as such looked them up. Now I'm asking those of you here about it before I do something stupid like spending money with them. Are they the same owners/people?

Not 100%, but what I do know is since I've been following the Cameroon shipment is when I placed my order I was told a large lot had already been sold. The next event was Backwater's Cameroon bounty post which was being unpacked and seemed to have identical packing as my order from said importer. So, I'm guessing our importer is supplying Backwater who is a retailer, which is why the collective, who is trying to breed quads on a large scale thus becoming competition and not buying too many large lots in the future, got the specimens they did. While Backwater, who being a retailer, will continue to purchase large lots every import and keep a flow going, needs to be kept happy. And although I hate to see anyone get screwed over as it seems you guys have, this is the business world and these are some of the pressures of the private sector where survival of the fittest does apply and causes people to make less than savory decisions. They're only human and only very exceptional people can rise above this it seems. Not trying to justify them by any means, just stating that this is the way it is. This is actually the flawed paradigm I've spoken of. The importers should be getting the fewer, quality WC bloodlines in the hands of the breeders and in return the breeders should be flowing the retailers with their surplus CBB.

Nature and Laroche wins. (Delusions of grandure) haha

Whatever the case, large numbers of compromised WC chameleons shouldn't be imported into a genetic dead end within the "pet" trade. If all parties involved could take the personal responsibility to regulate themselves, we wouldn't need to waist resources on these governing bodies, subjecting ourselves to ever increasing legislation, decrease the collection pressure on wild populations, and redirect those funds to preserving natural habitat. Which is how you will truly save a species. I'm sure it's been said before.

And it's after my criticisms, to be fair, honest and objective, I still must say I've only ordered from this importer a few times, but I've been lucky enough to be pleased with each and feel I've been treated well. Backwater, I've only ordered from once. A female deremensis that came in young and healthy with the exception of a little nose rub. She's still doing well and I must say I'm pleased with her also.

That being said, the more times we cast our lines in hopes of catching a fish, the more of a chance we have of pulling back a stick, boot, or nothing at all. WC is always a gamble because of current practices. Knowledge is power, but can be a double edge sword. In this business world, cards need to be played close to the vest. If too much information is offered, those cards can be stacked against you. What can we possibly learn from this? If the importer thinks you're a retailer, you might get one thing. If they know you're a breeding collective that may become competition in the future with little to no reciprocity, you're likely to get another. If this is even remotely what happened. I'm only postulating one possibility. This is why the paradigm shift towards a cooperative needs to take place. For the good of everyone involved, especially the chameleons (and all other living beings in this situation for that matter). Simple game theory, fear and greed are fighting till the end.

Sorry. A lot of this has been building for a long time and I just had to vent.

Now that my cliche meter is so low I must bid you a fond adieu.

Thanks for your time.

 

[jajeanpierre]

So I'm doing some homework on the BOI.

What's "BOI"?

 

[MelissaB]

What's "BOI"?

FaunaClassified Board of Inquiry. It's a forum where there is a section for reviews on reptile sellers and hobbyists that sell/trade. There is also a classified section.

 

[frankpayne32]

You know, people kind of rip on the old chameleon books, but I can't figure out why.

For example, when I look at TFH chameleons volume 1, temperatures appear about right to me. I still enjoy browsing that volume sometimes. That book was a gold mine to me when it was published.

My favorite lizard book of all time is "Lizards in Captivity" another TFH book. I've enjoyed flipping through it for over 30 years now.

What strikes me nowadays is how relevant a lot of the advice is in some of the older books, but there is also a level of assumption about the reader's reasoning that does not spell all the little details out. Advice to keep lizards outdoors except during winter and the importance of sunlight was spot on, but it wasn't until years later that I began doing so.

Another mag I miss was "reptile and amphibian magazine". REPTILES just isn't the same compared to that and the vivarium. For that matter, it has really gone downhill when compared to itself 20 years ago. I've had a subscription since the first issue appeared. Articles in the 1990s were much longer and more in-depth than today's, and the magazine was much thicker too.

Couldn't agree more. I've been reading and enjoying the TFH Chameleon books for twenty years. Same with the older Reptiles, Vivarium, CIN, and Reptiles & Amphibians magazines. I quit my subscription to Reptiles about seven years ago because of the reasons you listed.

 

[jajeanpierre]

FaunaClassified Board of Inquiry. It's a forum where there is a section for reviews on reptile sellers and hobbyists that sell/trade. There is also a classified section.

IGNORE THIS POST. Silly lazy me. A google search turns it up.

Where? On Chameleon Forums? Thanks.

 

[MelissaB]

You're welcome.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Not 100%, but what I do know is since I've been following the Cameroon shipment is when I placed my order I was told a large lot had already been sold. The next event was Backwater's Cameroon bounty post which was being unpacked and seemed to have identical packing as my order from said importer. So, I'm guessing our importer is supplying Backwater who is a retailer, which is why the collective, who is trying to breed quads on a large scale thus becoming competition and not buying too many large lots in the future, got the specimens they did. While Backwater, who being a retailer, will continue to purchase large lots every import and keep a flow going, needs to be kept happy. And although I hate to see anyone get screwed over as it seems you guys have, this is the business world and these are some of the pressures of the private sector where survival of the fittest does apply and causes people to make less than savory decisions. They're only human and only very exceptional people can rise above this it seems. Not trying to justify them by any means, just stating that this is the way it is. This is actually the flawed paradigm I've spoken of. The importers should be getting the fewer, quality WC bloodlines in the hands of the breeders and in return the breeders should be flowing the retailers with their surplus CBB.

Nature and Laroche wins. (Delusions of grandure) haha

Whatever the case, large numbers of compromised WC chameleons shouldn't be imported into a genetic dead end within the "pet" trade. If all parties involved could take the personal responsibility to regulate themselves, we wouldn't need to waist resources on these governing bodies, subjecting ourselves to ever increasing legislation, decrease the collection pressure on wild populations, and redirect those funds to preserving natural habitat. Which is how you will truly save a species. I'm sure it's been said before.

And it's after my criticisms, to be fair, honest and objective, I still must say I've only ordered from this importer a few times, but I've been lucky enough to be pleased with each and feel I've been treated well. Backwater, I've only ordered from once. A female deremensis that came in young and healthy with the exception of a little nose rub. She's still doing well and I must say I'm pleased with her also.

That being said, the more times we cast our lines in hopes of catching a fish, the more of a chance we have of pulling back a stick, boot, or nothing at all. WC is always a gamble because of current practices. Knowledge is power, but can be a double edge sword. In this business world, cards need to be played close to the vest. If too much information is offered, those cards can be stacked against you. What can we possibly learn from this? If the importer thinks you're a retailer, you might get one thing. If they know you're a breeding collective that may become competition in the future with little to no reciprocity, you're likely to get another. If this is even remotely what happened. I'm only postulating one possibility. This is why the paradigm shift towards a cooperative needs to take place. For the good of everyone involved, especially the chameleons (and all other living beings in this situation for that matter). Simple game theory, fear and greed are fighting till the end.

Sorry. A lot of this has been building for a long time and I just had to vent.

Now that my cliche meter is so low I must bid you a fond adieu.

Thanks for your time.

Nice post. The short version is you're saying that since the importer knew our animals were going to a group of experienced keepers with the intent of breeding them the importer felt we were future competition and gave us the crap on purpose. That being the case I won't buy from Backwater either.

To the person asking about the BOI. It is a useful internet tool where good and bad reviews are posted on reptile sellers. Doing a search of the BOI by using the name of the company or individual resulted in multiple negative business related posts about both companies. In checking the dates of the complaints I saw a pattern. After looking into this more over night there is a strong link between these two companies. Not sure what it is or if it is a family thing, a front, or the just same people with simply two businesses. It seems now the importer likes to keep the high end stuff for his store and the regular stuff goes through Backwater, hence why Backwater is now getting all the negative posts instead of the importer's business like it did some time back.

 

[Trace]

Just to play devils advocate here; we may know the group of quads were going to experienced keepers but does the importer? They are in it to make money plain and simple and don’t necessarily care who is who in the hobby. Let’s be realistic, if I had a dime for every time I heard someone say there were going to single handedly establish a species in captivity with a 1.2 groups I could be a layabout billionaire. I’m sure they hear the same thing day in and day out. Sure, there are big names in the hobby when it comes to ball pythons or boas or leopard geckos but do we really have that in chameleons? Aside from maybe the Kammers, most breeders and hobbyists don’t stick with it long term.

For the record, I do believe the quad group can and will establish them. They are all very long term experienced keepers that aren’t in it for the money and glory. They know that to do it, it will take many years of hard work before they see a payoff and that payoff isn’t necessarily going to be financial. Not many keepers have the patience for it.

 

[MelissaB]

I understand what you're saying Trace. But whether the group order was going to experienced keepers or not, they were promised the better animals from the shipment and paid in advance. That's where I think the importer is wrong. Promising one thing, and doing the complete opposite.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Never said always. But in these cases they were doomed because their demographic was too small to keep them going. Not enough people interested in doing things intelligently. It seems like everything has to be watered down for the masses. As a gauge, just look at the Discovery/ Learning/ NatGeo channels that used to have fairly decent and informative documentaries when I was younger, however repetitive and cliche they may have been, now are all Bigfoot, Mermaids, and Aliens insinuating nature isn't interesting enough even though they barely scratched the surface. Ah, the age of reality TV.

Thanks to all who keep this forum going so we can find kindred spirits.

Sorry to all following this thread for my soapbox tangent.

Ardi's problem was not to few of people joining the CIN. It was her negative outlook on the hobby, situation itself and saw no improvements possible. If the IUCN Red List had been around, there was much more conservation going on (National Parks and Preserves), and positive look on the horizon the CIN may still be published today. Even though they were going to finish with species profiles topics eventually and would have to become something similar to what the Chameleon Forums is now anyways.

I was surprised by the closure of the Vivarium Magazine as well. I preferred reading that magazine much more than Reptiles Magazine.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[GCash]

Nice post. The short version is you're saying that since the importer knew our animals were going to a group of experienced keepers with the intent of breeding them the importer felt we were future competition and gave us the crap on purpose. That being the case I won't buy from Backwater either.

Thanks, but I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not saying anyone knew anything for certain, just this is what to expect from the current business model and I don't expect more than people fighting to survive and they can't be completely blamed for self preservation as it is instinctual. The very few people with the self discipline to rise above this scratching and clawing are beacons of hope for humanity to those who recognize it, but so few appreciate what they are doing they usually get eaten alive in the world of business and profits. This is why quality CBB animals are being passed over for abused WCs with a cheaper price tag. Traders reap profits buying and selling while hard working breeders have trouble selling their well cared for offspring for what they should be getting. This forum is a huge step in the right direction and one of the reasons I decided to get back in.

Jeremy,

I remember Ardi's farewell all too well. Thankfully Bill, Ken and Don continued with chameleonnews.com, and I was ecstatic to find Bill and Chris members here. It's the dedicated keepers like these we all owe a huge debt of gratitude for their dissemination of knowledge. How many others besides Mike Fisher remember the CiN's mission statement?

And let's not forget, Reptiles Magazine "incorporated" The Vivarium.

Eaten alive.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm having trouble with acronyms. Some I read once but have forgotten.

CBB?
CIN?

Thanks.