The Concerns About the Recent Cameroon Imports

[OldChamKeeper]

Very interesting point you keep on here Carl.
I just had a long talk with my long therm Cameroon exporter in Douala and received some very interesting information
Export permits givin by the Cameroon wildlife officials for 2014 are:
trioceros quadricornis:0
trioceris wiedersheimi:0
trioceros montium :0
trioceros pfeferi:0,
only permits were givin for cristatus,oweni and spectrum.
Very interesting how these came to the US...

Laurie was telling me the importer was telling her he plans on more shipments. Something is fishy. Now it's really a bummer the Quads that did come in didn't get into the hands of those actively working to help establish them as a group. Craptastic!

 

[CarlC]

Very interesting point you keep on here Carl.
I just had a long talk with my long therm Cameroon exporter in Douala and received some very interesting information
Export permits givin by the Cameroon wildlife officials for 2014 are:
trioceros quadricornis:0
trioceris wiedersheimi:0
trioceros montium :0
trioceros pfeferi:0,
only permits were givin for cristatus,oweni and spectrum.
Very interesting how these came to the US...

Any time the word farmed is used I always think something is wrong. I know of 3 true chameleon farms in the whole of Africa . None of them are in West Africa. Jurgen I am sure you know the ones I am talking about. I know you deal with two of them.

The person who is responsible on the African end is pretty smart actually. If his goal was to get you to think he was sending farmed animals collecting young from the wild would make it look like farmed animals.

My guess and this is just a guess is these animals came out of Gabon, or Equatorial Guinea as was mention.

Has anyone asked for copies of the CITES permits? The dealer or his broker must keep them on hand for a certain period of time.

Carl

 

[jajeanpierre]

While sharing information on a one-on-one basis is wonderful, it doesn't help people like me and any others who don't have the contacts to visit, phone, text or pm.

So, no, Jeremy, that isn't in the spirit of CiN. Below is an excerpt from the CiN Mission Statement, emphasis mine:

"Our purpose is to provide a forum for sharing information about these unique creatures in order to contribute to their chances of surviving in the future. It is paramount that members of the CiN disseminate knowledge freely about the husbandry of captive chameleons. "

Who said we had to post openly on a thread? I am going to a Forums members house tomorrow to have a good conversion or two about breeding and etc... That is going to be extremely in the statement of what the CIN was about day and nobody is going to be eaten alive. It is going to be quite cordial actually. Mike is posting openly on posts what most people prefer posting their information privately through other means emails, phone numbers, texting, or pm's and other secure places. Which legally makes a lot of sense and is still in the spirit of the CIN. This is mostly a hobby for most everybody who is eating anyone?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[jajeanpierre]

Has anyone asked for copies of the CITES permits? The dealer or his broker must keep them on hand for a certain period of time.

Carl

I have asked about their CITES permit and do intend to follow up on it. There is always a possibility that I will end up living in another country and I like to have my paperwork ducks all in a row just in case I have to move. I have a lot of CITES I and II animals.

All CITES paperwork has to follow each individual animal from their country of origin if they are to be re-exported again. Keeping the documents forever was drilled into me by my avian vet in Riyadh who moved falcons around the world for hunting expeditions. I've kept all the documents for my parrots of every time they were transported across borders--even have their steel bands that I had removed--in a safety deposit box. A couple of my parrots have had 7 CITES re-export permits each.

US Fish and Wildlife can pull up a lot of the permit numbers from their own data base system. When I imported an ivory carving (that had been in my family for 50 years) into the US, the forms asked for a permit number for a permit that I actually had never received and didn't have a copy of. The permit was faxed directly to the USFW office that would be inspecting my birds because of time constraints. USFW came up with the permit numbers from 11 years ago very quickly during a phone call.

I would caution anyone against contacting USFW over this shipment. They are a funny agency that sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. Actually, they can't see the forest for the grass under the trees. They are a law enforcement agency, and they like to find infractions of obscure, poorly written and impossible-to-find laws and punish you over.

I was told the exporter was in Equatorial Guinea. I was told they were farmed. It is possible they did originate in Equatorial Guinea from a farm, even though they are so banged up. Not all farms treat animals for export the way one would hope. Sometimes it is best not to dig too deeply.

While many are not thrilled with this particular shipment, the shipment did make it into the US. I don't think we want to jeopardize getting future specimens.

 

[kameleons jvo]

I have asked about their CITES permit and do intend to follow up on it. There is always a possibility that I will end up living in another country and I like to have my paperwork ducks all in a row just in case I have to move. I have a lot of CITES I and II animals.

All CITES paperwork has to follow each individual animal from their country of origin if they are to be re-exported again. Keeping the documents forever was drilled into me by my avian vet in Riyadh who moved falcons around the world for hunting expeditions. I've kept all the documents for my parrots of every time they were transported across borders--even have their steel bands that I had removed--in a safety deposit box. A couple of my parrots have had 7 CITES re-export permits each.

US Fish and Wildlife can pull up a lot of the permit numbers from their own data base system. When I imported an ivory carving (that had been in my family for 50 years) into the US, the forms asked for a permit number for a permit that I actually had never received and didn't have a copy of. The permit was faxed directly to the USFW office that would be inspecting my birds because of time constraints. USFW came up with the permit numbers from 11 years ago very quickly during a phone call.

I would caution anyone against contacting USFW over this shipment. They are a funny agency that sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. Actually, they can't see the forest for the grass under the trees. They are a law enforcement agency, and they like to find infractions of obscure, poorly written and impossible-to-find laws and punish you over.

I was told the exporter was in Equatorial Guinea. I was told they were farmed. It is possible they did originate in Equatorial Guinea from a farm, even though they are so banged up. Not all farms treat animals for export the way one would hope. Sometimes it is best not to dig too deeply.

While many are not thrilled with this particular shipment, the shipment did make it into the US. I don't think we want to jeopardize getting future specimens.

I just send you a pm

 

[rshewfel]

While sharing information on a one-on-one basis is wonderful, it doesn't help people like me and any others who don't have the contacts to visit, phone, text or pm.

So, no, Jeremy, that isn't in the spirit of CiN. Below is an excerpt from the CiN Mission Statement, emphasis mine:

"Our purpose is to provide a forum for sharing information about these unique creatures in order to contribute to their chances of surviving in the future. It is paramount that members of the CiN disseminate knowledge freely about the husbandry of captive chameleons. "

I personally, wish Jeremy would keep more of his information a secret.

 

[Chase]

My guess and this is just a guess is these animals came out of Gabon, or Equatorial Guinea as was mention.
Carl

I don't want to sound stupid, but does this make a difference? Wouldn't they still need to come from Cameroon (well, some species are found in Gabon and Equatorial Guinea) ?

Chase

 

[Action Jackson]

I personally, wish Jeremy would keep more of his information a secret.

Rep sent your way.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I personally, wish Jeremy would keep more of his information a secret.

Why? Do you not want to share information?

 

[jajeanpierre]

I don't want to sound stupid, but does this make a difference? Wouldn't they still need to come from Cameroon (well, some species are found in Gabon and Equatorial Guinea) ?

Chase

It depends.

The CITES permits declare the country of origin. If they originated in Cameroon, and ended up in Equatorial Guinea, they would need a CITES Export permit from Cameroon and then a CITES Re-Export permit from Equatorial Guinea. The paper trail goes back to the originating country.

CITES violations have really serious ramifications to countries. For example, there was a CITES violation over the import of Russian caviar into the United Arab Emirates years ago. Dubai is a major hub for flights between Europe and the East. There was a threat that all CITES shipments would not be able to fly through Dubai, which would stop all movement of most animals and animal products to and from the East, whether captive bred or not.

If these chameleons were smuggled from Cameroon without the proper paperwork, I suspect they could still be confiscated, maybe even mine. (USFW likes to do these kinds of things. Then they'll just auction them off and I can buy my own chameleon back.)

If they were smuggled in to Equatorial Guinea and set up on a farm, then they are captive bred. The "ranching" designation on CITES permits is for CITES I species being placed under the CITES II category, and I do not think any of these chameleons are CITES I, the most at risk category.

 

[Chase]

But is that something the company in the states would have known or would this all go back to the exporter

Chase

 

[rshewfel]

Rep sent your way.

lol. Sadly, this is how I get my rep points.

 

[laurie]

lol. Sadly, this is how I get my rep points.

Well at least you get them

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I don't care for those little groups of anointed few guarding the keys to the kingdom, never have. I live my life by the golden rule. Keeping knowledge to oneself that may better the lives of hundreds or perhaps thousands of captive chameleons over the long term is selfish and shows weakness of character.

Mike do not be a joy kill a night of talking chameleons with a group of chameleon keepers instead of typing on a keyboard is GOOD. The Chameleon Forums is good too. In person just tops it though.

Yesterday was Good! Not a gathering on the scale of South Bay Chameleon Keepers. However it was good. I am sworn to secrecy about last night Sorry hosts request.

While sharing information on a one-on-one basis is wonderful, it doesn't help people like me and any others who don't have the contacts to visit, phone, text or pm.

So, no, Jeremy, that isn't in the spirit of CiN. Below is an excerpt from the CiN Mission Statement, emphasis mine:

"Our purpose is to provide a forum for sharing information about these unique creatures in order to contribute to their chances of surviving in the future. It is paramount that members of the CiN disseminate knowledge freely about the husbandry of captive chameleons. "

I personally, wish Jeremy would keep more of his information a secret.

Then I have got a dilemma with you guys. I am going to post what I can. Actually most of the big breeders here do not post breeding information and I wish you would not try singling me out actually. I contribute where I can and have posted some information in the past.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Todnedo]

I personally, wish Jeremy would keep more of his information a secret.

That is one of the best ways to get rep points that I know of.
It must say something about MR. knowitall

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

That is one of the best ways to get rep points that I know of.
It must say something about MR. knowitall

The irony of people telling to be quite on my own threads LOL. Love it or Hate it.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[GCash]

I'm new here and would like to know, is it proper etiquette amongst breeders to bring your host a gift of panacur and flagyl?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm new here and would like to know, is it proper etiquette amongst breeders to bring your host a gift of panacur and flagyl?

What about Ivomectin? Or is that normally just used for horses?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hi all,

I thought I would chime in on the discussion of where these animals are being exported from as it is a topic I have been worried about for some time. As has been noted, the majority of Cameroonian chameleons that enter the trade are not being exported from Cameroon. In fact, they are being exported from countries where they do not occur, namely Equatorial Guinea. This is particularly true for imports into the US.

For example, Trioceros pfefferi imports into the US have not originated from Cameroon since 2001 according to CITES trade statistics. All T. pfefferi that have been imported since that time have originated from Equatorial Guinea, where the species does not occur. Similarly, with the exception of one shipment in 2012, T. wiedersheimi has not been exported from Cameroon to the US since 2003, however they are exported in very large numbers from Equatorial Guinea. Further, there have only been 288 T. montium exported from Cameroon into the US since 2003. There have been 4,335 T. feae reportedly exported from Equatorial Guinea into the US since 2001, however. Now, anyone familiar with these animals knows that the number of T. montium imported into the US since 2003 far exceeds the number reported out of Cameroon, and that few, if any T. feae have ever been present in the trade. I also have personally unpacked a confiscated shipment of T. feae with USFWS and confirmed for them that they were in fact T. montium, which does not occur in Equatorial Guinea. Similarly, since 2002 there have been 389 T. quadricornis imported into the US from Cameroon and 4,916 imported into the US from Equatorial Guinea. T. quadricornis does not occur in Equatorial Guinea.

The permits that are issued by Equatorial Guinea indicate that these animals are Wild Caught, and the permits are not reexport permits, indicating that the animals are being issued permits from Equatorial Guinea on their own. This obviously creates serious question about the integrity of the CITES Management Authority of Equatorial Guinea and points to them circumventing international wildlife laws and the management efforts of Cameroon to protect and maintain sustainable exports of these species.

Here are a couple published notes I've made of this issue, in the hopes that it would spur action from CITES. This ultimate goal is still a work in progress, but it is starting to make it into official documents and the broader literature.

First, I included note of this issue in the Chameleon Conservation chapter of "The Biology of Chameleons" (from page 206; http://www.chamaeleonidae.com/Publications_files/Jenkins 2014.pdf):

One increase in chameleon exportation is particularly noteworthy, however. Equato- rial Guinea’s export quantities increased from 4100 individuals from 1991 to 2000, to over 16,800 between 2001 and 2010 (CITES, 2012a). In fact, between 2004 and 2010, Equatorial Guinea was the sixth largest single exporter of chameleons, but 53% of the chameleons exported during that period were of species that are not known to occur within Equatorial Guinea (Trioceros pfefferi, T. quadricornis, and T. wiedersheimi). Despite the fact that these species do not occur in Equatorial Guinea, original CITES documents (as opposed to reexport documents) were issued for animals listed as caught in the wild, raising considerable concern about circumvention of international wildlife laws and management efforts.

Second, I also made the issue known to CITES via the UNEP-WCMC while they were collecting data for the CITES Review of Significant Trade for T. quadricornis (from page 82; http://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/com/ac/27/E-AC27-12-04.pdf):

C. Anderson (in litt. to UNEP-WCMC, 2013) cautioned that large quantities of the species were exported from Equatorial Guinea, which is not a range State for the species. The lack of reported imports from the range States was considered to indicate potential illegal trade (C. Anderson, in litt. to UNEP-WCMC, 2013).

Anyway, it definitely is concerning to see so many of these species being exported from Equatorial Guinea.

Chris

 

[Chase]

Chris- what is T. feae being imported as, because I don't remember ever seeing that (of course, I have really only paid attention the past few years, not the full 2001-present)

Chase