The Next Frontier?

jamest0o0 said:
This a million percent. Not much else I can add to that.

I don't get it though, I have no problem with knowing my cham doesn't love me. I love reptiles for what they are, if they were more people-like, maybe I wouldn't be so fond of them? Haha.

There are so many cool things about the world, everything doesn't have to be familiar to us humans to appreciate it. I don't have a problem with people loving their reptiles and imagining they are people too, but I don't like when those same people often say that us more logical types don't love our animals because we don't see them as we see ourselves(this was a common comment made to me way back, a couple years ago, when there was an uproar over this same subject... not saying anyone did here). Check out my enclosures, my experience, and my dedication to this hobby. My animals and even my feeders get plenty of love.
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No doubt - whoever would insinuate someone doesn’t care for their animal based on this conversation is a bit overboard.

I don’t think there is love or loyalty, trust yes. A bond? Maybe more on the human side. Again i think a lot of this is interpretation of the words we use and how we understand those words. I think, given the chance, our chameleons would be up a tree never to be seen again.
 
KobaOregonherper said:
I understand this I really do. My problem is, when someone asks a question like "is my chameleon crying?" I see this as a husbandry issue. If someone is projecting that much emotion on to their chameleon, this person is probably taking their chameleon out too often, or into public, letting them sleep on their lap. Things we all know as huge issues. So when people kept saying we were getting off topic, I didnt think so. In my mind that was the answer to their question, "no he wasnt crying and you need to stop projecting."
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Amen brother! This is why I say that while it seems and often is harmless to anthropomorphize on a small scale(example, oh my cham misses me!), on a large scale that "love" often results in many animals suffering.

Change my mind!
 
snitz427 said:
No doubt - whoever would insinuate someone doesn’t care for their animal based on this conversation is a bit overboard.

I don’t think there is love or loyalty, trust yes. A bond? Maybe more on the human side. Again i think a lot of this is interpretation of the words we use and how we understand those words. I think, given the chance, our chameleons would be up a tree never to be seen again.
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Absolutely, I said the other day, nitpicking word usage is what's happening 99% of the time
 
jamest0o0 said:
This a million percent. Not much else I can add to that.

I don't get it though, I have no problem with knowing my cham doesn't love me. I love reptiles for what they are, if they were more people-like, maybe I wouldn't be so fond of them? Haha.

There are so many cool things about the world, everything doesn't have to be familiar to us humans to appreciate it. I don't have a problem with people loving their reptiles and imagining they are people too, but I don't like when those same people often say that us more logical types don't love our animals because we don't see them as we see ourselves(this was a common comment made to me way back, a couple years ago, when there was an uproar over this same subject... not saying anyone did here). Check out my enclosures, my experience, and my dedication to this hobby. My animals and even my feeders get plenty of love.
Click to expand...
For anyone to say you don’t love your scaly’s WOW !!. I know with 100% certainty your an amazing keeper and love them , along with @Brodybreaux25 . I hope you never thought I was one of those people . We all know I’m an emotional girl I’m the first to admit that , I’m also sarcastic which in a text can be taken wrong .
 
Here’s what us humans have as a unique survival adaptation: extreme consciousness/intelligence. Dolphins, on the other hand can do super wild stuff with echo location; ants can lift many times their own body weight; saltwater crocodiles can snap a 2x4 with ease. To attempt to anthropomorphize these animals with human traits seems terribly arrogant. Why try to imbue animals with human traits, when their own are, arguably, way more impressive. Humans suck!
 
Kaizen said:
Here’s what us humans have as a unique survival adaptation: extreme consciousness/intelligence. Dolphins, on the other hand can do super wild stuff with echo location; ants can lift many times their own body weight; saltwater crocodiles can snap a 2x4 with ease. To attempt to anthropomorphize these animals with human traits seems terribly arrogant. Why try to imbue animals with human traits, when their own are, arguably, way more impressive. Humans suck!
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This this this

Whales/dolphins are incredibly intelligent and impressive. They form friendships among different species and everything... it's a humbling thing to see, we are smarter, but relatively speaking, not by much. And not at everything either

Then crocodiles! Those guys have barely evolved over how many millions of years simply because they are that badass at surviving. They are prehistoric killing machines.

And finally, roaches comes to mind! Their abilities to efficiently use nutrients, create nutrients(turn uric acid to protein!), resist pesticides, and survive so many circumstances... the pest species are a PITA for humans, but god as animals trying to survive, they're pretty damn insane.
 
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Kaizen said:
Yikes! So what’s exactly is your operative definition of emotion? Totally not try to antagonize here, but if this debate is going to be fruitful, I think it would be helpful to know what you mean by ‘emotion’.
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My personal definition of emotion is the release of specific chemicals in the brain that create visual and physical responses bases on a reaction to a situation. I mentioned this on my post on the thread this is related too.

Example:

Epinephrine also known as adrenaline, is a chemical that is given off when we become angry. It allows the amygdala to send signals to the frontal lobe of the brain that then allows our neurotransmitters to speed up our heart rate and show other signs that we are angry.
 
snitz427 said:
Love is not an emotion, as you pointed out earlier. I think many of us (myself especially) are arguing semantics.

My opinion is that, regardless of how medulla oblongatas makes alligators ornery, or that chameleons do not have the neurological capabilites to feel emotions as other animals do.... is that my chameleons most certainly clearly express fear, surprise, anxiety, and gambling addictions. Those, in my mind, by definition, are emotions - that they are clearly expressing. They may be triggered by certain stimuli, which triggers their fight or flight instinct... but those instinctual responses are a result of fear, surprise, and/or anxiety. So call it what you will, but the semantics of it are still there, I think.

I’m really not unhinged about this so I hope I am not coming across the wrong way. Discussions / arguments like these help me learn. I blame my job...
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Id argue this is correct to an extent. But the capacity in which they feel that emotion is what I say doesnt exist. More like an involuntary response to a situation, rather than a thought out reaction based on situation and previous experiences.
 
Beman said:
I knew you would.... lol So by magic I mean... the first time I felt my daughter move when I was pregnant. How it feels to be truly loved by a man that really sees me. The way the forum held me together through the loss of Bahari. Magic.... There are these things that yes all can be explained away with scientific this and that but there is magic in the world. There is beauty that flows through everything. For you the beauty may be in a DNA sequence lol. Your scientific brain goes there probably easier then the beauty in a baby's eyes seeing the world for the first time. It is magic!
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I get it. I see magic in discovery, new frontiers, ie the name of this thread. Wonderous amounts of knowledge just waiting to be found and studied. I can atleast appreciate where you see it, that I dont. Not to do the whole boy girl thing, but this sounds like my wife when ever shes talking about things weve gone through in our lives with someone. For her its a constant adventure, for me its a complicated check list. :ROFLMAO:
 
KobaOregonherper said:
I get it. I see magic in discovery, new frontiers, ie the name of this thread. Wonderous amounts of knowledge just waiting to be found and studied. I can atleast appreciate where you see it, that I dont. Not to do the whole boy girl thing, but this sounds like my wife when ever shes talking about things weve gone through in our lives with someone. For her its a constant adventure, for me its a complicated check list. :ROFLMAO:
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Ignorance is bliss.
 
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