Veiled female MBD, possible constipation
- Thread starter Riven
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Elizadolots
New Member
I'm kind of wondering about the x-rays. It sounds like they might not have been the best.
You should take heart from that video! That chameleon rallied quite well.
Remember, it's not an easy, quick fix. Give Pascal a couple of weeks of good quality care and hopefully she'll bounce back. It took her time to get in this condition, it will take her time to strengthen.
You should take heart from that video! That chameleon rallied quite well.
Remember, it's not an easy, quick fix. Give Pascal a couple of weeks of good quality care and hopefully she'll bounce back. It took her time to get in this condition, it will take her time to strengthen.
A lot of things around here is the best, that's part of the price we pay being so far from big cities, lack of selection, and lack of competition.
She seems to be doing a little better today, she looks a bit rounder, and we didn't have a current cricket count, but it looks like a couple may be gone. We sunned, we medicated, she was pretty angry this afternoon, for her anyway, she was dark leaf green with some stripes and brown tips, that's the most I've seen her change.
Was hoping the new bulb would be here today, but not yet. I sat out with her for a bit, then put her in her cage, when I came back out to check on her she had made it off the towel (over the ridge of it) and about 8" towards the branch laying in there. That is the most she's tried to move since Sunday morning.
Tomorrow we're going to the vet, I'm hoping he'll let us take her home with injections, but we'll see. Last I heard from him he was still leaning towards being egg bound... although he hadn't seen the xrays or anything... so yea.
Today she sucked up really thin when my husband walked up, she's not used to him, he upset her and she turned dark green again, lol.
We asked Hailey if she wanted to trade her in, and she said no. So we're going to stay on track as planned.
For those who have dealt with this how fast should we see improvement after the injections start or end? I saw some increments on the other MBD cham of an improvement within a couple weeks, is this accurate? I know it will vary per cham, but I was just wondering about an expected range to kind of monitor her progress. I will keep you guys updated, and was thinking about getting some video of her if that would help any...
She seems to be doing a little better today, she looks a bit rounder, and we didn't have a current cricket count, but it looks like a couple may be gone. We sunned, we medicated, she was pretty angry this afternoon, for her anyway, she was dark leaf green with some stripes and brown tips, that's the most I've seen her change.
Was hoping the new bulb would be here today, but not yet. I sat out with her for a bit, then put her in her cage, when I came back out to check on her she had made it off the towel (over the ridge of it) and about 8" towards the branch laying in there. That is the most she's tried to move since Sunday morning.
Tomorrow we're going to the vet, I'm hoping he'll let us take her home with injections, but we'll see. Last I heard from him he was still leaning towards being egg bound... although he hadn't seen the xrays or anything... so yea.
Today she sucked up really thin when my husband walked up, she's not used to him, he upset her and she turned dark green again, lol.
We asked Hailey if she wanted to trade her in, and she said no. So we're going to stay on track as planned.
For those who have dealt with this how fast should we see improvement after the injections start or end? I saw some increments on the other MBD cham of an improvement within a couple weeks, is this accurate? I know it will vary per cham, but I was just wondering about an expected range to kind of monitor her progress. I will keep you guys updated, and was thinking about getting some video of her if that would help any...
The reason you couldn't see the bones on the xray is because they are so deprived of calcium that they just don't show up. They don't have enough minerals in them to have the opacity bones should have. That is a classic finding with MBD.
Any chance you could take a picture of the xray with a light behind it? Maybe pull up a white screen on your computer, put the xray over it and take a picture without flash? If you can find a way to post them I can try to give you some pointers on what they reveal...
Brilliant.. I was trying with a lamp for quite a while last night and was thinking... I wish I had a white board... or maybe I could take them to work and borrow the radiology dept's... lol. I didn't think of my computer... duh...
I am a little worried, she hasn't poo'd much at all, just a tiny small bit that we've seen since Sat. evening and since she's been on paper or a towel the whole time it's kind of obvious...
Well that didn't work... screen wasn't bright enough. These are film xrays, so they just plain old don't have the crispness that the digital's do. I should've just taken her into the radiology and seen if they'd do it, probably would've been just as much and much better quality! His main thing with the xrays was to see if she had egg impaction, which I really doubt, I know it's possible but she has no color change, and I'm guessing her at about 3-4 months... I checked the paperwork and we've had her since August 3rd, she was little when we got her and they just got her in, so I'm guessing she was 5-6 weeks then...
I am a little worried, she hasn't poo'd much at all, just a tiny small bit that we've seen since Sat. evening and since she's been on paper or a towel the whole time it's kind of obvious...
Well that didn't work... screen wasn't bright enough. These are film xrays, so they just plain old don't have the crispness that the digital's do. I should've just taken her into the radiology and seen if they'd do it, probably would've been just as much and much better quality! His main thing with the xrays was to see if she had egg impaction, which I really doubt, I know it's possible but she has no color change, and I'm guessing her at about 3-4 months... I checked the paperwork and we've had her since August 3rd, she was little when we got her and they just got her in, so I'm guessing she was 5-6 weeks then...
Vet today... Leaving in a bit.
Today she got the angriest I've seen when we gave her the Ca. I don't know if it's that she's more feisty, or if she was mad that my husband controlled the dropper while I opened her mouth instead of Hailey. I also gave her a warm water soak holding her head up.
Her core body seems to be stronger and less "floppy" so I'm hoping that's a good sign.
I was thinking about something the other night and forgot to ask. Even when we first got her she would do what my daughter calls "the Egyptian". Is this normal movement or was it a sign we missed? I didn't know if it would be related to muscle contractions due to limited Ca or if it was normal for them and thought it would be good to know!
Hoping her new bulb comes in today...
Today she got the angriest I've seen when we gave her the Ca. I don't know if it's that she's more feisty, or if she was mad that my husband controlled the dropper while I opened her mouth instead of Hailey. I also gave her a warm water soak holding her head up.
Her core body seems to be stronger and less "floppy" so I'm hoping that's a good sign.
I was thinking about something the other night and forgot to ask. Even when we first got her she would do what my daughter calls "the Egyptian". Is this normal movement or was it a sign we missed? I didn't know if it would be related to muscle contractions due to limited Ca or if it was normal for them and thought it would be good to know!
Hoping her new bulb comes in today...
Elizadolots
New Member
If it's like this video: http://youtu.be/0hV5DcjWRuQ then it's normal.
Yup, that's the walk.
Okay, vet said... her hind legs are basically large sponge tissue right now. He says there "something" but not eggs in her hind gut, he discussed enema but said it can be kind of dangerous and easy to hurt them or perforate so he's going to wait and see if we can get her to eat. He's worried about her not eating obviously and told me to open her mouth and put something in it to see if she'd eat, very small crickets or other "soft" type bugs/worms. He is worried that she is so depleted that she is unable to work her tongue. He said sometimes their tongues will hang out and they'll accidentally bite them off... he didn't believe this was the case with her though. ( she's not good at opening up her mouth, this morning she really clamped it shut.
He gave a calcium injection and sent me home with them to continue them.
He basically said she's extremely advanced and although we can save her life... the quality of it may be questionable. He doesn't think she'll regain any use of her hind legs, he said although they'll probably harden, they probably won't be useful. He recommended moving them into place to help promote them to be in the correct spot.
Would wrapping them lightly help? Has anyone with advanced MBD had a cham be able to use their hind legs again?
She's out in the sun now, she was the angriest I'd even seen her in the car today unless I was holding her. She didn't mind Brad at all, other than being a bit upset about the shot, but the car... yea.
Okay, vet said... her hind legs are basically large sponge tissue right now. He says there "something" but not eggs in her hind gut, he discussed enema but said it can be kind of dangerous and easy to hurt them or perforate so he's going to wait and see if we can get her to eat. He's worried about her not eating obviously and told me to open her mouth and put something in it to see if she'd eat, very small crickets or other "soft" type bugs/worms. He is worried that she is so depleted that she is unable to work her tongue. He said sometimes their tongues will hang out and they'll accidentally bite them off... he didn't believe this was the case with her though. ( she's not good at opening up her mouth, this morning she really clamped it shut.
He gave a calcium injection and sent me home with them to continue them.
He basically said she's extremely advanced and although we can save her life... the quality of it may be questionable. He doesn't think she'll regain any use of her hind legs, he said although they'll probably harden, they probably won't be useful. He recommended moving them into place to help promote them to be in the correct spot.
Would wrapping them lightly help? Has anyone with advanced MBD had a cham be able to use their hind legs again?
She's out in the sun now, she was the angriest I'd even seen her in the car today unless I was holding her. She didn't mind Brad at all, other than being a bit upset about the shot, but the car... yea.
brooklynelizabeth
New Member
Well at least you have a idea of what you are up against now, i am sorry to hear that she is advanced as she is, at this point all you can do is try your best and nature will do its half. My thoughts are with you and i hope to hear great news soon
Pilotman800
New Member
My prayers are going out to you and your cham. I wish you guys the best of luck, and hope that she'll be able to use her legs again someday.
Okay, we've been showering, we've been hand feeding, medicating, and watering as well as sunning.
Still no poop...
I was really hoping to see some after force feeding last night.
She has not attempted to eat since Sat. morning (4 days now), I have to force open her mouth and have my daughter put food in. I need to order new crickets, her's have grown exponentially and are too large for her, so until we get something we can get in her mouth we're very limited. The vet said he doesn't normally recommend wild caught but until we get something settled it may be our only alternative. I'm going to check the one store in the next town ( that's 25 miles, lol) that does carry crickets to see if they have any smaller ones in yet today. Yesterday afternoon we got 3 pill bugs in her, she accepted them fairly willingly. For supper she had 3 meal worms, and this morning we got 2 meal worms in and her Ca orally as well as her Ca injection. Last night and this morning she has been moving her tongue when we put the food in, I'm not sure if she's trying to grab the food, or push it out though, any thoughts.
During her morning shower she did not move around as much as usual, I don't know if she's getting used to it, or is in too much pain... She sat there quietly with her eyes closed, is this a pleasure or pain response? I know different animals handle it differently so I'd like some insight on that.
And finally what are normal respiration for a cham? While showering ( I hold her under the "shower" of our sink which does indeed has a setting for "shower" like a sprayer as I tried the dish method and she had troubles keeping her head up as she gets tired quickly. Her breathing seemed slow and labored, at 4-5 breathes per minute.
Does anyone have a pic of a tongue IN the mouth? I just thought it might be nice to compare to make sure she didn't indeed bite off half of her tongue.
Still no poop...
I was really hoping to see some after force feeding last night.She has not attempted to eat since Sat. morning (4 days now), I have to force open her mouth and have my daughter put food in. I need to order new crickets, her's have grown exponentially and are too large for her, so until we get something we can get in her mouth we're very limited. The vet said he doesn't normally recommend wild caught but until we get something settled it may be our only alternative. I'm going to check the one store in the next town ( that's 25 miles, lol) that does carry crickets to see if they have any smaller ones in yet today. Yesterday afternoon we got 3 pill bugs in her, she accepted them fairly willingly. For supper she had 3 meal worms, and this morning we got 2 meal worms in and her Ca orally as well as her Ca injection. Last night and this morning she has been moving her tongue when we put the food in, I'm not sure if she's trying to grab the food, or push it out though, any thoughts.
During her morning shower she did not move around as much as usual, I don't know if she's getting used to it, or is in too much pain... She sat there quietly with her eyes closed, is this a pleasure or pain response? I know different animals handle it differently so I'd like some insight on that.
And finally what are normal respiration for a cham? While showering ( I hold her under the "shower" of our sink which does indeed has a setting for "shower" like a sprayer as I tried the dish method and she had troubles keeping her head up as she gets tired quickly. Her breathing seemed slow and labored, at 4-5 breathes per minute.
Does anyone have a pic of a tongue IN the mouth? I just thought it might be nice to compare to make sure she didn't indeed bite off half of her tongue.
Elizadolots
New Member
You have to go to the link to see the picture (veiled chameleon, tongue in mouth):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/-jon-/1132793000/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/-jon-/1132793000/
Thanks for the pic. The tip of her tongue is a little more whitish than that, but it's dark in the back, which is what I was worried about.
Well... she's a bit stronger, was hiding behind the plants when I got home from school.. but when we were force feeding her she nearly bit off her own tongue... it's not bleeding or anything, but I had to pry her mouth open to get it un-stuck then we had to get it back into her mouth...
She's been trying to use it some to get the worms either in or out of her mouth...
Still no poop. I'm getting very worried about that. If she has some sort of impaction I'm pretty sure that surgery is out of the question with her current state, and Brad said the enema can be very dangerous as well...
Well... she's a bit stronger, was hiding behind the plants when I got home from school.. but when we were force feeding her she nearly bit off her own tongue... it's not bleeding or anything, but I had to pry her mouth open to get it un-stuck then we had to get it back into her mouth...
She's been trying to use it some to get the worms either in or out of her mouth...
Still no poop. I'm getting very worried about that. If she has some sort of impaction I'm pretty sure that surgery is out of the question with her current state, and Brad said the enema can be very dangerous as well...
POOP! We've got POOP!!
I had two goals for today, get the lizard to poop, and get some chin pics taken.... so I'm halfway there and I haven't even had breakfast yet!
It was a LOT of poop. I put her in the sink on a towel to shower her instead of in my hand today as she seems much stronger and less lethargic, holding her head up a lot better. And I don't know if lizard people are as obsessed about poop as chin people, but I took a pic...
She seemed to like the light green kitchen towels, she could almost match the color!
So now we're going to continue to work on feeding and meds. Been doing the Ca shots, she's not impressed but it's necessary. She's much more fiesty today than the past few. Trying to move around more. Her arms fold in the front usually and she seems to move in an "army crawl" position. I've been doing PT with her hind legs, maybe I should work on the front too? The hind legs splay more outward now and less up, so the PT seems to be helping, I usually just let her clamp onto my fingers, hold them in place, then gently extend them out, etc. to promote normal movements that she might have and hopefully strengthen the proper muscles.
Yesterday I was not feeling hopeful, but it's amazing what a little ( or a lot... ) of poop can do! Hoping it warms up well for her to be outside today again, her bulb came in yesterday and so we have that on her. We've had it on the same schedule as the heat bulb, is that right or should be leave it on longer because of her condition?
Thanks so much, I might try to get some video of her tomorrow, I wish I'd have taken some a couple days ago so you guys can see the progress...
I had two goals for today, get the lizard to poop, and get some chin pics taken.... so I'm halfway there and I haven't even had breakfast yet!
It was a LOT of poop. I put her in the sink on a towel to shower her instead of in my hand today as she seems much stronger and less lethargic, holding her head up a lot better. And I don't know if lizard people are as obsessed about poop as chin people, but I took a pic...
She seemed to like the light green kitchen towels, she could almost match the color!
So now we're going to continue to work on feeding and meds. Been doing the Ca shots, she's not impressed but it's necessary. She's much more fiesty today than the past few. Trying to move around more. Her arms fold in the front usually and she seems to move in an "army crawl" position. I've been doing PT with her hind legs, maybe I should work on the front too? The hind legs splay more outward now and less up, so the PT seems to be helping, I usually just let her clamp onto my fingers, hold them in place, then gently extend them out, etc. to promote normal movements that she might have and hopefully strengthen the proper muscles.
Yesterday I was not feeling hopeful, but it's amazing what a little ( or a lot... ) of poop can do! Hoping it warms up well for her to be outside today again, her bulb came in yesterday and so we have that on her. We've had it on the same schedule as the heat bulb, is that right or should be leave it on longer because of her condition?
Thanks so much, I might try to get some video of her tomorrow, I wish I'd have taken some a couple days ago so you guys can see the progress...
Be careful...since her bones are still weak you could break them doing PT on her.
Also...don't recommend letting your chameleon be in your kitchen sink....especially to poop. Laundry room sink would be a better option IMHO.
Dlad that she pooped. When a chameleon has MBD it can play a part in constipation since calcium affects muscle contractions. Calcium plays a part in other things too.
Also...don't recommend letting your chameleon be in your kitchen sink....especially to poop. Laundry room sink would be a better option IMHO.
Dlad that she pooped. When a chameleon has MBD it can play a part in constipation since calcium affects muscle contractions. Calcium plays a part in other things too.
We do not have a laundry room sink, and the bathroom sinks are all very curved. I bleached the sink afterward to prevent any cross contamination from the feces. The only other sink available is in my chin house but that is used primarily for watering the chins ( another contamination concern ) but mostly there is only freezing cold water in there.
I maintain her normal movements and watch for bending of the "bones" which at this point is a term I'm using loosely for her legs as I've seen how she bends them on her own. No power lifting or fast and furious movements going on with that, but if you guys think it's not advisable I'll be glad to stop. My main concern was to get her hind legs into a position where she may someday be able to use them again, primary so they don't splay out and up ( were were at a 45 degree angle up).
I maintain her normal movements and watch for bending of the "bones" which at this point is a term I'm using loosely for her legs as I've seen how she bends them on her own. No power lifting or fast and furious movements going on with that, but if you guys think it's not advisable I'll be glad to stop. My main concern was to get her hind legs into a position where she may someday be able to use them again, primary so they don't splay out and up ( were were at a 45 degree angle up).
Bleach doesn't kill all chameleon parasites...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/parasites-bleach-waste-drain-water-13245/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/parasites-bleach-waste-drain-water-13245/
Elizadolots
New Member
I've put mine in the kitchen sink. Caution is a good thing, but you have to work with what you have. In my view, information about bleach added to infected water isn't necessarily applicable to pure strength bleach applied to a non-porous surface.
I'm glad she seems to be doing better and, yes, chameleon people are just as fascinated with poop as any owners of different animals (or parents of newborns) are. It's about the only clue we have to what's going on sometimes.
I'm glad she seems to be doing better and, yes, chameleon people are just as fascinated with poop as any owners of different animals (or parents of newborns) are. It's about the only clue we have to what's going on sometimes.
This morning she hissed at us a couple times, we got one cricket in. I know this doesn't seem like much, but I figure if she gets hungry enough she'll be more cooperative right? I figure it's better to give her a little than to fight her and stress her out to fill her up. This morning she was VERY thirsty. Got the orals and injections done, and as soon as it warms up she'll be outside to bask in natures UVB bulb...
When we went to feed her we didn't see her tongue at all and I was concerned, obviously they can fully and totally retract it! It did come out once the cricket was in, and then she used it to help "lap up" the water from the syringe. So hopefully if we can get her tongue working again we can work on cup feeding which should be easy for her as she would eat out of a bowl before when we put critters in there.
When we went to feed her we didn't see her tongue at all and I was concerned, obviously they can fully and totally retract it! It did come out once the cricket was in, and then she used it to help "lap up" the water from the syringe. So hopefully if we can get her tongue working again we can work on cup feeding which should be easy for her as she would eat out of a bowl before when we put critters in there.
