Veiled Fetus *photos*
- Thread starter Tyrenlds
- Start date
royden
New Member
Yeah - this is wading into a philisophical debate, I think it needs to end before I start asking the animal rights folks if they're also pro-life. (Please don't answer that.)
We can't debate a belief system here. This isn't the forum. We all have varied backgrounds and opinions. Let's leave it there.
We can't debate a belief system here. This isn't the forum. We all have varied backgrounds and opinions. Let's leave it there.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
excellent point royden, and a good way of forshadowing the ugly discussions that will inevitably follow should this continue on its current path!
chuka1212
New Member
I only think the thread should end if things get ugly, I salute everyone for not letting it get that way. Everyone has been able to voice their opinions on the matter without getting rude or nasty.
It's great to see what other people think and the reasons for them. It helps me understand people better and gives us all better insight on the subject.
From what I understand these forums are about all things chameleon, and sometimes our belief systems overlap with our hobbies and other things we do. So I think this foray into the opinions and values of everyone has been great and eye-opening, and also has been exemplary of what an intelligent and level-headed debate is all about.
As long as we are not getting mean or judging one another for our values then I say debate on...
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
First I would like to be late in saying to the OP...Welcome to the site!!! It's a valuable resource, and hope you enjoy as much I have in a short time... You can really learn a lot on here. On top of that I hope you didn't feel attacked by any posts, but I'm sure you knew that it would be a touchy one.
I completely agree with Chuka... Discussions like this are fuel for progressive thinking. It is just important we always remember that there are always two sides to the coin and to remain respectful. You have to question everything, and never accept anything for how it is. The only reason I actually take the time to think out loud on the forums is because no matter how much I think I know... Or no matter how much I think I am right... I can always learn something new from someone else. I have said before... when somebody not only takes the time to read my take on things... but actually cares enough to engage in an educated debate on the topic... I take it as a compliment.
I would like to know how the rest of the eggs are doing!
I completely agree with Chuka... Discussions like this are fuel for progressive thinking. It is just important we always remember that there are always two sides to the coin and to remain respectful. You have to question everything, and never accept anything for how it is. The only reason I actually take the time to think out loud on the forums is because no matter how much I think I know... Or no matter how much I think I am right... I can always learn something new from someone else. I have said before... when somebody not only takes the time to read my take on things... but actually cares enough to engage in an educated debate on the topic... I take it as a compliment.
I would like to know how the rest of the eggs are doing!
FOREVER ENDEAVOR
New Member
wow..very sad... but cool photos..next time i would just wait it out....poor lil guy.
Jeweledchameleons
Avid Member
now back to the program.
Now that's all over with.....
I wanted to post up some of the images I adjusted to get better detail out.
There was the suggestion that the embryo was awake
and it's eyes we're "open" earlier in the thread
I don't believe that is the case at all.
I believe that you can better see that they're almost transparent
with the entire embryo enveloped in a mucus like sac.
the light reflection makes it difficult to see things clearly
but I believe that there's a thickening running over the center of the eye
that is creating the reflective patter directly above and below the center.
effectively doubling the light reflection where there would only be one reflection
if the surface was smooth and consistent.
Basically, the eye coverings haven't developed enough thickness or pigment
to cover the eye but are a thin layer of translucent cells
but the groove that would have developed into the eye's opening
is thicker and distorts the reflections.
on top of that
In the first set of images you can see "dots" covering the iris
from the forming eyelids.
Now that's all over with.....
I wanted to post up some of the images I adjusted to get better detail out.
There was the suggestion that the embryo was awake
and it's eyes we're "open" earlier in the thread
I don't believe that is the case at all.
I believe that you can better see that they're almost transparent
with the entire embryo enveloped in a mucus like sac.
the light reflection makes it difficult to see things clearly
but I believe that there's a thickening running over the center of the eye
that is creating the reflective patter directly above and below the center.
effectively doubling the light reflection where there would only be one reflection
if the surface was smooth and consistent.
Basically, the eye coverings haven't developed enough thickness or pigment
to cover the eye but are a thin layer of translucent cells
but the groove that would have developed into the eye's opening
is thicker and distorts the reflections.
on top of that
In the first set of images you can see "dots" covering the iris
from the forming eyelids.
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SoCaliSon
Avid Member
I think I get what your getting at. It is hard to tell from the pics. But what you point out as the closed eyelid groove looks like more of a light reflection to me. Even if the eyes were open I doubt they were observing to much. I was just saying that when I see the perfectly round black circle in the middle of the eyes i always thought meant that the eyes were open... Cover them up with as much mucas as you want ... They can still be open. But that would be a silly debate. Regardless of whether the eyes were open or not... He was moving and breathing and responsive... Therefore alive and struggling.
I don't want to start an argument... But I think that this is the appropriate place to pose the question... As I feel it would be beneficial to know how other herpers feel on this subject... Even though it is based on philisophical ideaology it definately applies. Just remember to be respectful of others ideas and we can have a freindly discussion. Here it is...
Where do you draw the line for unlicensed private parties being able to operate or experiment on live animals or embryos that they have raised and own?
Personally I find this case sad simply because it could have been prevented with the research that should have been done prior to buying a chameleon or breeding. They were "curious" if it was alive because they were taking unusually long for them to hatch (most likely an incubation temp issue) but with the proper research done they could have easily found out how to check if they are fertile before killing one, and probably would have learned about the temp issue at the same time. The fact is that anyone who can fork the cash to impulse buy a pair of chams can end up with a clutch of eggs... Personally I believe that becasue you had the money to buy a living organism does not give you the right to experiment with it as you wish. It is your responsibility to provide what is needed for them to live and thrive, and your responsiblity to consult a vet when necessary. That procedure is the last thing a vet would have done in determing the health of your eggs. While the pics are informative... it is nothing we couldn't have learned without that lil guys sacrifice. I don't think we should be giving people this idea... We should be encouraging people to do the proper research and to consult vets. By allowing this to sit on the boards without pointing out what is wrong with it... It is just telling people that if your curious about the fertilty of your eggs go ahead and cut one open and check... When we all know that is not what you do! We will have ill informed newbs killing perfectly good eggs all over the place!
I don't want to start an argument... But I think that this is the appropriate place to pose the question... As I feel it would be beneficial to know how other herpers feel on this subject... Even though it is based on philisophical ideaology it definately applies. Just remember to be respectful of others ideas and we can have a freindly discussion. Here it is...
Where do you draw the line for unlicensed private parties being able to operate or experiment on live animals or embryos that they have raised and own?
Personally I find this case sad simply because it could have been prevented with the research that should have been done prior to buying a chameleon or breeding. They were "curious" if it was alive because they were taking unusually long for them to hatch (most likely an incubation temp issue) but with the proper research done they could have easily found out how to check if they are fertile before killing one, and probably would have learned about the temp issue at the same time. The fact is that anyone who can fork the cash to impulse buy a pair of chams can end up with a clutch of eggs... Personally I believe that becasue you had the money to buy a living organism does not give you the right to experiment with it as you wish. It is your responsibility to provide what is needed for them to live and thrive, and your responsiblity to consult a vet when necessary. That procedure is the last thing a vet would have done in determing the health of your eggs. While the pics are informative... it is nothing we couldn't have learned without that lil guys sacrifice. I don't think we should be giving people this idea... We should be encouraging people to do the proper research and to consult vets. By allowing this to sit on the boards without pointing out what is wrong with it... It is just telling people that if your curious about the fertilty of your eggs go ahead and cut one open and check... When we all know that is not what you do! We will have ill informed newbs killing perfectly good eggs all over the place!
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royden
New Member
I'll take a crack at it since we're aiming for levelheadedness
Where do you draw the line for unlicensed private parties being able to operate or experiment on live animals or embryos that they have raised and own?
Unlicensed private parties should not be able to experiment or operate on live animals at all. The question is, when do they start living? And how do we inforce this in an area like eggs, where even candleing would kill the endeveloped cham, so there's no way of the unlicensed party to know whether the egg was fertalized or not for sure without a doubt. Accidents would happen, are they punishable?
Where do you draw the line for unlicensed private parties being able to operate or experiment on live animals or embryos that they have raised and own?
Unlicensed private parties should not be able to experiment or operate on live animals at all. The question is, when do they start living? And how do we inforce this in an area like eggs, where even candleing would kill the endeveloped cham, so there's no way of the unlicensed party to know whether the egg was fertalized or not for sure without a doubt. Accidents would happen, are they punishable?
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
Great point... I believe that as long as their is a heartbeat we are talking about a living animal whether it be completely deveolped are incomplete, in an egg or in a womb, if there is a heartbeat present we are talking about something that is alive, whether or not they know it yet or not. That being said I AM pro choice. Every keeper has the responsibilty to choose whether or not they and ther chams are ready to breed... And they have the responsibility to do the proper research to make sure they handle it right.
I thought that if done right candling was the safe way to check if your eggs are fertile or not?
I disagree... If they do the research and care for the eggs properly, and practice patience then if the egg is fertile it will eventually hatch... If it is not fertile... eventually it will be obvious...there is no need to cut it open to check... Just be patient. In this case it was curiosity that killed the Cham.
Thanks for the discussion Royden... Much respect.
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Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Well, it's clearly alive. Opening an egg kills the animal. The question is who coudl justifiably do this. You can justify it if you're trying to discover something, with a clear goal. It's the curiosity/science thign is a very slippery area with loads of ambiguity.
By experimenting on animals, people live longer, healthier lives, billions have better lives due to it. When you do something that's not "nice", you have to justify the means with some pretty good ends.
By experimenting on animals, people live longer, healthier lives, billions have better lives due to it. When you do something that's not "nice", you have to justify the means with some pretty good ends.
Veiledviscorous
New Member
What I don't personally understand is why everyone is freaking out over it. The owner was curious, and for the person who said he would've stopped once you cracked the egg, the chameleon would've died anyway. The owner was curious. The loss of one Cham for the sake of learning is better than the loss of a hundred because of ignorance. Stop freaking out over the fact that the owner ACCIDENTALLY killed one of the chameleons, it's not like they broke open every single egg and destroyed an entire clutch. The owner didn't know the egg was fertilized, and he the only way he found out was through cutting it open.
Everyone who's angry about the owner's actions needs to stop and think about what it is they just learned by looking at those pictures- even if they didn't want to learn. We're all here for support, not a backlash for a mistake- and a mistake that has taught us all a valuable lesson in the development of a baby chameleon within the egg.
Everyone who's angry about the owner's actions needs to stop and think about what it is they just learned by looking at those pictures- even if they didn't want to learn. We're all here for support, not a backlash for a mistake- and a mistake that has taught us all a valuable lesson in the development of a baby chameleon within the egg.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
I teach physiology labs at the University of South Florida. Part of doing so necessitates me putting down frogs for experimentation by my students. These experiments include such activities as cutting open the chest cavity to study the response of a still beating heart to different chemicals produced by the body. I don't enjoy killing as many frogs a week as I need to in order to teach this class but it does have a use. Scientists have long ago determined what such experiments do but continued use of such techniques are invaluable to the contribution of knowledge to others.
My research is on feeding in chameleons. To study the biomechanics, I need to study their physiology and morphology. This means that after I am finished recording living data from animals I use for my research, I have to put them down and do invasive research as well. I don't enjoy doing this but what I learn from doing so is vital to increasing our knowledge of these animals as well as wider biological principles.
The notion that only "licensed" individuals should conduct studies with living animals is somewhat misguided. While in a University setting, there are animal protocol boards set up to make sure experimentation is done appropriately and without needless suffering, etc., these same protocol comities frequently do not provide guidelines that make any sense and are often not even in the best interest of the animals involved. When a desert animal that does not naturally have access to water sources and such water availability and humidity is detrimental to their survival, being required by an animal use comity to always have a clean water bowl in the enclosure because "animals need water" is not a benefit to the animals being used yet this is a common issue and example of the problem with some of these committees. Now, I'm not saying the intent of such comities is not good, I'm just saying common sense, knowledge of the animals you're working with and responsibility often are better.
The problem I have with the animal rights mentality is that it values the individual over the species. An example is the eradication effort on the Channel Islands off California. There is an endemic subspecies of mouse on these islands (Anacapa Deer Mouse) that was disappearing because of introduced rats. In an effort to save the species, which lives no where else, a representative population of the mouse was captured and brought into captivity. All predators (foxes, raptors, etc.) on the island were captured and then ever square yard of the islands were peppered with rat poison killing every introduced rat (and any uncaptured Anacapa Deer Mice that weren't captured). Once the rat poison was rendered nontoxic after a period of time, the captured deer mouse population and predators were rereleased and the species is no longer in danger. Its a great conservation success story that was almost brought to a halt because animals rights activists were actively running a campaign to stop the effort on the grounds that the introduced rats needed defending. This is a classically short sighted view that is typical of animal rights groups.
In this case, a great deal can be gained from these photos. By looking at what has and has not been developed in this cham, we can get a better idea of the series of development, among other things. These studies have not been done on chameleons, to the best of my knowledge. I have been considering (and have talked to others about it too) taking a clutch and dissecting individual eggs at different times throughout the clutches development to get a photographic series of development put together. This type of information would be fascinating and very informative.
This forum is for people to learn about chameleons. Sometimes learning requires sacrifice. It isn't always a nice thing and no one enjoys doing it but such sacrifices contribute to our ability to care for them as the more we understand about these animals, the better we are able to provide ideal conditions to keep, breed and conserve them. These sacrifices shouldn't be taken lightly and should be done carefully but they are still valuable.
Just my 2 cents.
Chris
My research is on feeding in chameleons. To study the biomechanics, I need to study their physiology and morphology. This means that after I am finished recording living data from animals I use for my research, I have to put them down and do invasive research as well. I don't enjoy doing this but what I learn from doing so is vital to increasing our knowledge of these animals as well as wider biological principles.
The notion that only "licensed" individuals should conduct studies with living animals is somewhat misguided. While in a University setting, there are animal protocol boards set up to make sure experimentation is done appropriately and without needless suffering, etc., these same protocol comities frequently do not provide guidelines that make any sense and are often not even in the best interest of the animals involved. When a desert animal that does not naturally have access to water sources and such water availability and humidity is detrimental to their survival, being required by an animal use comity to always have a clean water bowl in the enclosure because "animals need water" is not a benefit to the animals being used yet this is a common issue and example of the problem with some of these committees. Now, I'm not saying the intent of such comities is not good, I'm just saying common sense, knowledge of the animals you're working with and responsibility often are better.
The problem I have with the animal rights mentality is that it values the individual over the species. An example is the eradication effort on the Channel Islands off California. There is an endemic subspecies of mouse on these islands (Anacapa Deer Mouse) that was disappearing because of introduced rats. In an effort to save the species, which lives no where else, a representative population of the mouse was captured and brought into captivity. All predators (foxes, raptors, etc.) on the island were captured and then ever square yard of the islands were peppered with rat poison killing every introduced rat (and any uncaptured Anacapa Deer Mice that weren't captured). Once the rat poison was rendered nontoxic after a period of time, the captured deer mouse population and predators were rereleased and the species is no longer in danger. Its a great conservation success story that was almost brought to a halt because animals rights activists were actively running a campaign to stop the effort on the grounds that the introduced rats needed defending. This is a classically short sighted view that is typical of animal rights groups.
In this case, a great deal can be gained from these photos. By looking at what has and has not been developed in this cham, we can get a better idea of the series of development, among other things. These studies have not been done on chameleons, to the best of my knowledge. I have been considering (and have talked to others about it too) taking a clutch and dissecting individual eggs at different times throughout the clutches development to get a photographic series of development put together. This type of information would be fascinating and very informative.
This forum is for people to learn about chameleons. Sometimes learning requires sacrifice. It isn't always a nice thing and no one enjoys doing it but such sacrifices contribute to our ability to care for them as the more we understand about these animals, the better we are able to provide ideal conditions to keep, breed and conserve them. These sacrifices shouldn't be taken lightly and should be done carefully but they are still valuable.
Just my 2 cents.
Chris
danielle609
Established Member
I love this forum, everyone can put in their 2 cents without hissy fits. I belong to another forum where whenever a touchy topic gets brought up you end up with 105 pages of bickering ( I am sure some of you know what forum I am talking about ) So my 2 cents....
I find the pictures very intriguing...yet at the same time felt a little bad for the little fella. But this little guy only suffered for 1 hour. That isn't very long if you think of other ways the most of them die due to "experiments". If you ask me anytime any of us newbies have our first clutch of eggs to incubate it is an experiment. I have heard many times that if moisture levels aren’t kept consistent the shells can get too hard and they suffocate in the eggs...that would mean the cham would suffer for much more than an hour. I personally don't think I would cut any of my eggs open, but I don’t personally see how he did anything wrong. But that is just my 2 cents....I wish it were easier to put thoughts into writing
) So my 2 cents....I find the pictures very intriguing...yet at the same time felt a little bad for the little fella. But this little guy only suffered for 1 hour. That isn't very long if you think of other ways the most of them die due to "experiments". If you ask me anytime any of us newbies have our first clutch of eggs to incubate it is an experiment. I have heard many times that if moisture levels aren’t kept consistent the shells can get too hard and they suffocate in the eggs...that would mean the cham would suffer for much more than an hour. I personally don't think I would cut any of my eggs open, but I don’t personally see how he did anything wrong. But that is just my 2 cents....I wish it were easier to put thoughts into writing
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I am very impressed by the way this thread has gone - in the past, it's always been hard to discuss the more in-depth aspects of the hobby. Especially on Kingsnake forums...
Tyrenlds
New Member
Here's a better look at the eye lid;
Now that's all over with.....
I wanted to post up some of the images I adjusted to get better detail out.
There was the suggestion that the embryo was awake
and it's eyes we're "open" earlier in the thread
I don't believe that is the case at all.
I believe that you can better see that they're almost transparent
with the entire embryo enveloped in a mucus like sac.
the light reflection makes it difficult to see things clearly
but I believe that there's a thickening running over the center of the eye
that is creating the reflective patter directly above and below the center.
effectively doubling the light reflection where there would only be one reflection
if the surface was smooth and consistent.
Basically, the eye coverings haven't developed enough thickness or pigment
to cover the eye but are a thin layer of translucent cells
but the groove that would have developed into the eye's opening
is thicker and distorts the reflections.
on top of that
In the first set of images you can see "dots" covering the iris
from the forming eyelids.
Last edited:
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
Chris I have the utmost respect in your profession...I actually hope to follow the same path...THat was an awesome post! Like I said before I completely accept and actually find procedures that you perform in your practice as well as your classroom necessary for science. I have performed dissections of many different animals throughout my ongoing education and was not bothered by what I was doing, I actually found it incredibly fascinating and informative. One of the reasons this was so beneficial for me as a student was because I had the proper lead and direction from a professor who was there to educate me on what exactly I was looking at. I think that should be the case all the time.
Okay .. just noticed I left some of Royden's text in on my previous post on accident without quotes..
oops I will edit that after I post this.
This has turned into great discussion... so much more intriguing than the usual old stuff... Even though I can't get enough of that either!
Eric:
The problem is that anyone of us could say that we have a goal in learning something by killing a live animal, trying to perform our own experiments for the sake of learning... But the fact is if you don't have the credentials, or the equipment for that matter(notice the "scalpel"!) to go along with the "goal" then you shouldn't do it on your own. Let's not forget the goal was to find out if the eggs were fertile... In my opinion not the way to do it.
danielle609:
Thanks everyone... and know that I am not trying to step on any toes just trying to keep juices moving Typing this stuff out helps me think!
Okay .. just noticed I left some of Royden's text in on my previous post on accident without quotes..
oops I will edit that after I post this.
This has turned into great discussion... so much more intriguing than the usual old stuff
... Even though I can't get enough of that either!Eric:
The problem is that anyone of us could say that we have a goal in learning something by killing a live animal, trying to perform our own experiments for the sake of learning... But the fact is if you don't have the credentials, or the equipment for that matter(notice the "scalpel"!) to go along with the "goal" then you shouldn't do it on your own. Let's not forget the goal was to find out if the eggs were fertile... In my opinion not the way to do it.
I would have to say that curiosity is the fuel for science... But it is also the fuel for a lot of other things, so we have to keep a leash on that curiosity in a lot of cases.
danielle609:
I find that hour unnecessary especially considering the purpose of the whole operation... to see if it was fertile.
Thanks everyone... and know that I am not trying to step on any toes just trying to keep juices moving
Typing this stuff out helps me think!
Jeweledchameleons
Avid Member
after looking over the updated posts I can see that
I was a bit incorrect at to the placement of the eyelids opening.
thanks for the reposting of the better image
the dark line is clearly the eyelids groove/opening.
It's good to discuss things isn't it?
please lets continue....
Socalison said:
regarding my analysis of "the eyes"
um,
I've read and re-read the post
nowhere is that stated by the threads author
that the embryo was "moving" and "struggling".
I know from my own examination of a veiled cham embryo
that they are not active and "breathing" ... the only response I was getting
was color and pattern changes in response to stimuli.
(mine was much further along in it's development).
There is respiration of course, but that's not being conducted via the lungs
Their metabolism is basically in slow mode and they don't move at all.
Even the use of the word "struggling" to depict an implied "fight for survival"
would necessitate some form of consciousness and awareness of it's plight.
Since there was no movement or responses there's nothing "there"
but autonomic processes. Same with the late stage animal I examined.
There was also the mention that this was entirely needless
and that all the information was available via proper research.
well I'll ask you to please show us this research
that didn't involve the loss of an egg or it's embryo.
I remember searching for more detailed information and found nothing
regarding embryonic development.
it just goes to show the lack of information and research
that's been done or is currently available.
in many ways we've got to get our own answers re: these animals.
(personally, that's a very exciting prospect)
I do know is that this is very much worth doing
and I don't think anyone is carelessly going to be popping open eggs
just for the hell of it... Unless they're some sort of cruel child.
While the original motivation from perhaps a inexperienced incubator
who wanted to see if his eggs were still viable...
we all gained from his posting the pictures.
I doubt it's going to be a regular event for this person or any of us.
Please remember that the greatest advances were not conducted by
people approaching matter from a ridged formal and established system.
real advances come out from the left field usually against established dogma
nothing is really learned when a pre envisioned goal is reached in science
it's when the unexpected is encountered and the curious observer says
"oh... that's really odd... hummmmm"
The human anatomical studies were conducted hundreds of years ago "without licensing" by mavericks.
There was always direct opposition by some moral authority at the time opposing them,
holding things back. The information that was gained by those individuals
allowed advancements in human medicine that has benefitted all, including the moralists (ironically).
IF people would have obeyed the arguments and not sought out answers by going out on a limb
thereby challenging some "authority" people would still be talking about humors
and how the brain was a cooling organ for the eyes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism
as long as it's not cruel.
I was a bit incorrect at to the placement of the eyelids opening.
thanks for the reposting of the better image
the dark line is clearly the eyelids groove/opening.
It's good to discuss things isn't it?
please lets continue....
Socalison said:
regarding my analysis of "the eyes"
um,
I've read and re-read the post
nowhere is that stated by the threads author
that the embryo was "moving" and "struggling".
I know from my own examination of a veiled cham embryo
that they are not active and "breathing" ... the only response I was getting
was color and pattern changes in response to stimuli.
(mine was much further along in it's development).
There is respiration of course, but that's not being conducted via the lungs
Their metabolism is basically in slow mode and they don't move at all.
Even the use of the word "struggling" to depict an implied "fight for survival"
would necessitate some form of consciousness and awareness of it's plight.
Since there was no movement or responses there's nothing "there"
but autonomic processes. Same with the late stage animal I examined.
There was also the mention that this was entirely needless
and that all the information was available via proper research.
well I'll ask you to please show us this research
that didn't involve the loss of an egg or it's embryo.
I remember searching for more detailed information and found nothing
regarding embryonic development.
it just goes to show the lack of information and research
that's been done or is currently available.
in many ways we've got to get our own answers re: these animals.
(personally, that's a very exciting prospect)
I do know is that this is very much worth doing
and I don't think anyone is carelessly going to be popping open eggs
just for the hell of it... Unless they're some sort of cruel child.
While the original motivation from perhaps a inexperienced incubator
who wanted to see if his eggs were still viable...
we all gained from his posting the pictures.
I doubt it's going to be a regular event for this person or any of us.
Please remember that the greatest advances were not conducted by
people approaching matter from a ridged formal and established system.
real advances come out from the left field usually against established dogma
nothing is really learned when a pre envisioned goal is reached in science
it's when the unexpected is encountered and the curious observer says
"oh... that's really odd... hummmmm"
The human anatomical studies were conducted hundreds of years ago "without licensing" by mavericks.
There was always direct opposition by some moral authority at the time opposing them,
holding things back. The information that was gained by those individuals
allowed advancements in human medicine that has benefitted all, including the moralists (ironically).
IF people would have obeyed the arguments and not sought out answers by going out on a limb
thereby challenging some "authority" people would still be talking about humors
and how the brain was a cooling organ for the eyes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism
as long as it's not cruel.
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