Curious Gardener: What did I find?
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kaity
New Member
Chameleons are not native to Florida. It might get too hot for this little guy in the summer, and there might be a few days in the winter it will be to cold. Also it does not rain enough, nor is humid enough. Right now I hear the outdoor temps are perfect for a veiled to live, but a caged veiled who is being given ample water through misting and a dusted food source. I fear he will die out there on his own... just from lack of food and water alone, not to mention predators from other lizards, to birds, to cats and dogs. Also I think it might be to hot for him in a few weeks. I understand 100% if you do not want to keep him because Chameleons require a lot of care, but please do not release him. I am positive if you post him in the classifieds for free somebody local will pick him and and try to nurse him back to health in a heartbeat. To be honest he already appears to be in pretty bad shape, so the sooner he can get proper care the better!
lysinlight87
New Member
it's something to be cautious about. These guys can cause damage that's not obvious. Ecosystems are complex and involve many direct and indirect interactions. The damage can be done before we discover what's causing it. I'm not slagging off Florida, for god's sake, and just because I don't live there doesn't mean I don't know anything. It's just not a good idea to let non native animals run loose.
Here we have Harlequin beetles, they're just beetles and look just like normal ladybirds but they are distroying our native ladybirds. Does it really matter? In the long term, if one species is replaced by one that's almost identical, what's the problem? I don't know, there are arguments for and against, but I feel we should be wary. Loss of genetic diversity is one of the biggest risks I feel, as diversity allows life to adapt to an ever changing world.
I work for really hard for my education & want to make the most of it, and make a difference one day. Maybe help develope a new treatment for cancer or MS. That's why I'm paying for it. And without the diversity of animals and plants- insects big and small, we would be lost. They have genes we can use, plants provide the basis for many medicines, so we should be cautious about loosing any of them.
Also remedial? That's not fair. I'm tired of having my ass kicked my whole life. You have NO idea how much this upsets me. In fact, no-one ever does, do they? One passing insult and it's hilarious, meanwhile, the person targeted goes home and cries...sometimes it turns out they have depression, and that was the straw that broke the camels back, I say that because that was/is what happens to me. Just leave me alone please. I've said my piece and you've said yours. I'm sure you've got plenty more saved up for me but I'm out of here.
Here we have Harlequin beetles, they're just beetles and look just like normal ladybirds but they are distroying our native ladybirds. Does it really matter? In the long term, if one species is replaced by one that's almost identical, what's the problem? I don't know, there are arguments for and against, but I feel we should be wary. Loss of genetic diversity is one of the biggest risks I feel, as diversity allows life to adapt to an ever changing world.
I work for really hard for my education & want to make the most of it, and make a difference one day. Maybe help develope a new treatment for cancer or MS. That's why I'm paying for it. And without the diversity of animals and plants- insects big and small, we would be lost. They have genes we can use, plants provide the basis for many medicines, so we should be cautious about loosing any of them.
Also remedial? That's not fair. I'm tired of having my ass kicked my whole life. You have NO idea how much this upsets me. In fact, no-one ever does, do they? One passing insult and it's hilarious, meanwhile, the person targeted goes home and cries...sometimes it turns out they have depression, and that was the straw that broke the camels back, I say that because that was/is what happens to me. Just leave me alone please. I've said my piece and you've said yours. I'm sure you've got plenty more saved up for me but I'm out of here.
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Maybe I am against invasive species because of my time in Australia and seeing first hand how the Cain toad has completely decimated areas. When the sun sets, there are literally millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of these things hopping around.
The problem I have with your opinion, Montium, is that you don't seem to take TIME into consideration. In 100, 500, 1000 years there may be a few hundred species wiped out from this highly specialized predator. In a place where many of the Western world's bird populations come to every year, many which nest there.
Snakes and chameleons are NOT beyond established there because they have not had the time to become so. The problem will get much worse. Cain toads on the other hand have had the better part of a century, since the 1930s.
Hawaii never had mosquitos. Wouldn't that have been a nice thing?
Yes, they are 'cool', but they belong in cages, not on the opposite side of the world they are native to.
So do your part and don't release it back in the wild. If that is a female, then you are doing a huge service to native wildlife, as one female can equal hundreds of thousands of descendants over the decades.
The problem I have with your opinion, Montium, is that you don't seem to take TIME into consideration. In 100, 500, 1000 years there may be a few hundred species wiped out from this highly specialized predator. In a place where many of the Western world's bird populations come to every year, many which nest there.
Snakes and chameleons are NOT beyond established there because they have not had the time to become so. The problem will get much worse. Cain toads on the other hand have had the better part of a century, since the 1930s.
Hawaii never had mosquitos. Wouldn't that have been a nice thing?
Yes, they are 'cool', but they belong in cages, not on the opposite side of the world they are native to.
So do your part and don't release it back in the wild. If that is a female, then you are doing a huge service to native wildlife, as one female can equal hundreds of thousands of descendants over the decades.
kaity
New Member
Honestly I don't see why you guys are arguing about species invasion... over this Veiled Cham. If the OP releases it I am pretty sure it's obviously it will die. Look how small it is and how bad of shape it is already in. I understand the general concern but this situation is not really related to that in my opinion.
Colorful Creatures
Member
I'm not trying to make light of your education but it really irks me when someone comes onto a forum and boasts about how their opinion is so valid cause they went to a government institution and the price paid makes their education so great. That education only would cost 1/4 of that if it wasn't subsidized from the gov't but that's a whole other topic I can go on for forever. Because it's gov't driven I feel higher education in a lot of areas are very limited to open views and you are taught to go through certain sets of criteria and methods, thus limiting the capabilities of the individual. As has been said already a lot of the invasive studies were widely blown up in order to recieve funding from gov't. This is FACT. Therefore whatever you're studying, you'd better be in line with their opinions if you ever want to recieve accreditation or funding. I'm definitely not trying to make light of invasive species but we have been doing this for THOUSANDS of years. Mistakes have for sure been made and it will never stop, I find it funny how the most invasive species on earth has this opinion about invasive species.
lysinlight87
New Member
I'm prepared for differences of opinion but I have no intention of validating anything I don't agree with not matter how lucrative.
But what is certainly not acceptable in a scientific, or political, debate is calling the other party mentally disabled because you disagree with them & in calling my education remedial you are doing just that.
Colorful Creatures
Member
Fair enough I wasn't referring to you as remedial as a person but I feel a lot of education that's gov't subsidized is remedial and narrow minded in general. I apologize seeing now that I see how you took it as a personal attack on yourself and not the institution itself cause as you stated sarcastically that all of the info you were being taught was wrong and then proceded to put the price of that education, which honestly to me is definitely overpriced and that's being said from my own experience as well.
lysinlight87
New Member
Ok, apology accepted. & I apologise because what I originally said was snotty. I didn't mean to set off a debate about the mis-use and abuse of education. I disagreed with the post I was replying to but didn't express myself in the right way. Sorry.
Colorful Creatures
Member
I agree and pretty much that was my only point and I didn't express it the way I meant as well. Take care.
lysinlight87
New Member
I'm personally thinking of food webs. If the chameleons have a particular liking for an insect species then the original species that feed on that insect will suffer and subsequently their predators will suffer etc. & before you know it you've got 5 species in decline.
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
Sorry for continuing to hijack this thread over non native species, but it IS a major issue for many places on the planet. Whether or not the veiled chameleons in FL are going to become the next plague, the attitude humans have about dumping whatever they choose into habitats they don't belong IS the issue.
Here are just a few reminders about a few human-introduced species that were assumed to be harmless but are now disasters that cost the planet millions each year:
reed canary grass
purple loosestrife
water hyacinth
brown tree snake
mongoose
mosquitos
Mediterranean fruit fly (AKA med fly)
carp
snakehead
cane toad
rabbit
cheat grass
Russian thistle
English sparrow
starling
rock dove
Norwegian or black rat
goats
pigs
Here are just a few reminders about a few human-introduced species that were assumed to be harmless but are now disasters that cost the planet millions each year:
reed canary grass
purple loosestrife
water hyacinth
brown tree snake
mongoose
mosquitos
Mediterranean fruit fly (AKA med fly)
carp
snakehead
cane toad
rabbit
cheat grass
Russian thistle
English sparrow
starling
rock dove
Norwegian or black rat
goats
pigs
Colorful Creatures
Member
I'm definitely not advocating releasing pets into the wild
Colorful Creatures
Member
How many are reptiles?
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
A few. In South Florida alone burmese pythons, green iguanas, nile monitors, tegus, and bull frogs have had negative effects on native populations. Bull frogs alone all but annihilated several other species of frogs by eating them indiscriminately.
The thing with ecosystems that most people don't know is that a particulate ecosystem doesn't have unlimited niche spaces. The slots are limited, so when you introduce a species that back home has a similar niche as a species here, but has no native predators, they have the potential to out compete the native one. And this can have cascading effects, most of which we poorly understand until it's too late.
Colorful Creatures
Member
Well aware of all those and once again highly overstated. My point is basically this hyped up hysteria of invasive species is about to really take its toll on reptile keepers everywhere in the us due to a tiny fraction of our country (actually a fraction of florida itself) where non native species can't ever survive no matter how many you let go. Which is why I wouldn't ever release one of my reptiles here in Texas, not because I'm worried about them setting up a population but for the very fact they'll die. Florida can take the necessary steps to prevent further exploitation and they have in a lot of ways. People in general are definitely more aware these days of these potentials and that's a good thing but the hysteria is starting to annoy me all around. Mammals are definitely the biggest threat to becoming an invasive species that causes unmeasurable amounts of damage but not being nearly as regulated as theyre trying to do with reptiles. So do be responsible and not release your pets into the wild and live up to the obligations of being a good pet owner, the safety and well being of our animals and not the hyped hysteria of it becoming invasive.
lysinlight87
New Member
I agree with you 100% & we're the ones that have introduced all these other invasive species. Basically, it really is our fault and it is, therefore, our job to take responsibility for it. This may have been happening for hundreds of years, but how on earth would chameleons end up in florida if it weren't for us importing them there? Invasive species have caused chaos worldwide but they've got there on our ships, our planes....
I feel sorry for our little Red Squirrel, the Grey Squirrel came along on ships & completely took over their niche. They survive on the Isle of Wight & some places in Scotland... but they used to live all over the UK. If we catch a grey squirrel we're not allowed to re-release them, but it's not their fault either. It's ours.
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