Curious Gardener: What did I find?

[showjet95]

I find it amusing that the most successful invasive species on earth is discussing how damaging invasive species can be to an eco system... But hot dang do I get yelled down when I mention that little fact.

Profound! I couldnt agree more.

 

[Carlton]

How many are reptiles?

In this top-of-my-head tiny partial list? How about the entire list of hundreds of introduced species scattered all over the planet? My point was, it does not matter what type of organism it is, but the arrogant attitude and ignorance of the introducers that causes the problem. The majority of invasive species are probably viruses or other microrganisms, insects and plants, not vertebrates simply because the number of individuals is so much greater. Look what chytrid fungus has done to frog populations world wide...and it was most likely spread by humans dumping aquatic lab frogs or their remains (after human pregnancy testing) into every freshwater system assuming it wouldn't hurt anything. Add worldwide exotic species trade to that. Most frogs sold for pets carry it now so any time a pet owner flushes or buries a dead pet it spreads even further.

I purposely did not mention the exotic reptile/snake invasions in FL because that's beating a dead horse on herp forums.

Now for this supposedly inhospitable habitat in TX making introduction of invasive species nearly impossible think again...tamarisk (salt cedar), cheatgrass, Russian thistle (tumbleweed), phragmites grass, some cacti, and others I can't name right off are all there and damaging or destroying habitat for native critters.

Speaking of native critters, remember HI's problems with invasive non native species one of which is the jackson's chameleon. Why would such a harmless creature cause trouble? Well, some of the most endangered species in the islands are insects...either because the species itself is losing the battle to other exotic insects outcompeting it, to habitat loss from the imported goats and pigs, or because they are the only known pollinator for equally endangered plants...and the importation of a non native predatory lizard isn't a good idea especially an arboreal species that can get to the pollinator insects that are also arboreal. The problems with invasive species are not simple but cause a huge ripple effect stemming from one stupid act.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

I find it amusing that the most successful invasive species on earth is discussing how damaging invasive species can be to an eco system... But hot dang do I get yelled down when I mention that little fact.

Ironic isn't it, I mentioned that in one my earlier posts and is a part of my basic point of why is everyone so touchy about it.

 

[lysinlight87]

In this top-of-my-head tiny partial list? How about the entire list of hundreds of introduced species scattered all over the planet? My point was, it does not matter what type of organism it is, but the arrogant attitude and ignorance of the introducers that causes the problem. The majority of invasive species are probably viruses or other microrganisms, insects and plants, not vertebrates simply because the number of individuals is so much greater. Look what chytrid fungus has done to frog populations world wide...and it was most likely spread by humans dumping aquatic lab frogs or their remains (after human pregnancy testing) into every freshwater system assuming it wouldn't hurt anything. Add worldwide exotic species trade to that. Most frogs sold for pets carry it now so any time a pet owner flushes or buries a dead pet it spreads even further.

I purposely did not mention the exotic reptile/snake invasions in FL because that's beating a dead horse on herp forums.

Now for this supposedly inhospitable habitat in TX making introduction of invasive species nearly impossible think again...tamarisk (salt cedar), cheatgrass, Russian thistle (tumbleweed), phragmites grass, and others I can't name right off are all there and damaging or destroying habitat for native critters.

I also read the same studies about frogs-it's sad & frightening.

There's also White Nose Syndrome that occurs in bats. It occurs in european bats with no ill effect but has decimated US bats. The theory is that this fungus has spread to US bats via european visitors, or that it is tranmitted throught soil. Of course it's all under debate but many US caves are also closed to explorers to reduce the risk of contaminating populations.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

In this top-of-my-head tiny partial list? How about the entire list of hundreds of introduced species scattered all over the planet? My point was, it does not matter what type of organism it is, but the arrogant attitude and ignorance of the introducers that causes the problem. The majority of invasive species are probably viruses or other microrganisms, insects and plants, not vertebrates simply because the number of individuals is so much greater. Look what chytrid fungus has done to frog populations world wide...and it was most likely spread by humans dumping aquatic lab frogs or their remains (after human pregnancy testing) into every freshwater system assuming it wouldn't hurt anything. Add worldwide exotic species trade to that. Most frogs sold for pets carry it now so any time a pet owner flushes or buries a dead pet it spreads even further.

I purposely did not mention the exotic reptile/snake invasions in FL because that's beating a dead horse on herp forums.

Now for this supposedly inhospitable habitat in TX making introduction of invasive species nearly impossible think again...tamarisk (salt cedar), cheatgrass, Russian thistle (tumbleweed), phragmites grass, and others I can't name right off are all there and damaging or destroying habitat for native critters.

Exactly my point none are reptiles just a bunch of grass and trees you don't hear about them banning trees. It's definitely too inhospitable for virtually any reptile imported over here. What about all reptiles that have all have disappeared here in Texas due to another invasive species, people. So basically this issue is subject to point of view. I just would like the attitude of the general public be aware of the real dangers and not a false hype. Are we the only species exempt from this invasive list and how are to determine our cost of invasiveness being that animals don't judge the loss of their habitat in money, they just simply disappear.

 

[sandrachameleon]

How many are reptiles?

On the Canadian island I live on, an introduced common italian wall lizard is wiping out the indigenous lizards. It is also having an effect on local insect life. POssibly the local snake population. And it's not been all that long yet. The long term effects are unknown of course. Worse, it would be easy, now that this animal is here, to have it migrate (often by human (possibly the most invasive destructive animal) actions) elsewhere.

This is but one example. There are more.

 

[Carlton]

Exactly my point none are reptiles just a bunch of grass and trees you don't hear about them banning trees.

Again, it still doesn't matter. All you need for one ecological disaster is the right species in the right place...it could be a herp, a bird, a mammal, plant, whatever. The point I was trying to make is, mindlessly scattering organisms around the world because we don't know or care is stupidity.

 

[Carlton]

Exactly my point none are reptiles just a bunch of grass and trees you don't hear about them banning trees.

Salt cedar/tamarisk is a tree...and it's a federally noxious species that cannot be transported, transplanted, sold, or allowed to spread uncontrolled on your property.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

Again, it still doesn't matter. All you need for one ecological disaster is the right species in the right place...it could be a herp, a bird, a mammal, plant, whatever. The point I was trying to make is, mindlessly scattering organisms around the world because we don't know or care is stupidity.

Ive already stated that responsibility should taken and not to release random animals wherever.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

Salt cedar/tamarisk is a tree...and it's a federally noxious species that cannot be transported, transplanted, sold, or allowed to spread uncontrolled on your property.

So ban reptiles?

 

[Carlton]

On the Canadian island I live on, an introduced common italian wall lizard is wiping out the indigenous lizards. It is also having an effect on local insect life. POssibly the local snake population. And it's not been all that long yet. The long term effects are unknown of course. Worse, it would be easy, now that this animal is here, to have it migrate (often by human (possibly the most invasive destructive animal) actions) elsewhere.

This is but one example. There are more.

That's one I hadn't heard about! And, not a region most people would think of as herp-friendly! What about the Cuban (or is it the Bahama?) anole outcompeting/replacing our native anole? The brown tree snake decimated native birds in HI, Guam, and I think the Marianas Islands.

 

[DanSB]

Ironic isn't it, I mentioned that in one my earlier posts and is a part of my basic point of why is everyone so touchy about it.

I agree with both viewpoints on here because both make valid arguments.

We need to look at our individual values and make decisions on a case by case basis.

By introducing new species we ARE changing something we don't understand and have in many instances observed that it has had negative consequences to native species up to and including complete extinction.

Biodiversity and the world in general is in a constant state of change. We are a very young species comparatively and have not reached maturity or even finished filling in our niche whatever that might be.

In a one hundred thousand years the world might turn into a desert because of our actions today and in a million a whole new sentient species may arise... maybe the descendants of the Veiled Chameleon population that is invasive in Florida today?

And back again: we are changing things by introducing species. Many here recognize this change as bad because it has a very good potential to affect our current quality of life. Some here think the change is too minimal to matter some think it is too great and shouldn't happen, some aren't sure and feel it is best not risk it.

That every species on this planet will go extinct is inevitable, but if we enjoy the species and want our future generations to enjoy them as long as possible and to preserve ourselves I tend to agree that we should try to keep our impact as small as possible on eco-systems while retaining our own species.

 

[Carlton]

So ban reptiles?

NONONONO! I never said ban anything. I am not one of those who think banning big snakes from every part of the USA is necessary! I said think before releasing or introducing something where it does not belong, regulate the trade and punish those who are irresponsible.

 

[DanSB]

NONONONO! I never said ban anything. I am not one of those who think banning big snakes from every part of the USA is necessary! I said think before releasing or introducing something where it does not belong, regulate the trade and punish those who are irresponsible.

Thus the problem with government and bureaucratic regulations...

Instead of requiring responsibility the answer is to just ban ban ban....

Makes me so mad.

 

[Olimpia]

So what if we're ruining ecosystems just by existing and developing land, does this make it right to just throw our arms up and say "screw it" about whatever is left? THIS attitude is dangerous. We've done damage already, so who cares?

The least we could do, as conscious human beings, is to take care with what we do now on. This means not releasing anything that isn't indigenous to your area into your area, regardless of how small an effect you think it will have, because you really never know what will happen. That monitors in Florida are eating the eggs of animals doesn't just affect S. Fl., it could and can affect all the migratory species of birds that fly from Canada to Mexico and stop in Fl on the way. So now it's not just local Florida wildlife that is potentially suffering, but birds that live in Canada most of the year.

Calling it all hype is really, really understating it from an ecological stand point.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

NONONONO! I never said ban anything. I am not one of those who think banning big snakes from every part of the USA is necessary! I said think before releasing or introducing something where it does not belong, regulate the trade and punish those who are irresponsible.

I agree with you 100%, that's basically all I'm saying but my reasons are that of responsibility to our animals that we've chosen to keep in captivity and not for the fear of them propagating. I'm also only speaking of my reptiles, I think there's way more potential threats in other species of plants and animals.

 

[BocaJan]

Please don't post any little chameleon for free in the classifieds or Craigs List. People who own snakes snarf up the freebies for their snakes. If you are going to let someone adopt this baby veiled just ask on the forum for someone to ask and I'm sure someone will pop up and become an adoptive parent.

Chameleons are not native to Florida. It might get too hot for this little guy in the summer, and there might be a few days in the winter it will be to cold. Also it does not rain enough, nor is humid enough. Right now I hear the outdoor temps are perfect for a veiled to live, but a caged veiled who is being given ample water through misting and a dusted food source. I fear he will die out there on his own... just from lack of food and water alone, not to mention predators from other lizards, to birds, to cats and dogs. Also I think it might be to hot for him in a few weeks. I understand 100% if you do not want to keep him because Chameleons require a lot of care, but please do not release him. I am positive if you post him in the classifieds for free somebody local will pick him and and try to nurse him back to health in a heartbeat. To be honest he already appears to be in pretty bad shape, so the sooner he can get proper care the better!

 

[Carlton]

Thus the problem with government and bureaucratic regulations...

Instead of requiring responsibility the answer is to just ban ban ban....

Makes me so mad.

Me too! It probably comes down to money...Banning a whole taxon everywhere is less expensive and easier to enforce than figuring out exactly where it would be most needed and for which specific species. Enforcement and inspection budgets for stuff like this is pitiful. Changing or adding federal regulations is expensive and takes forever (and you have to work through Congress), so no one wants to have to revise them or correct what's wrong! I've worked for the USFWS before in endangered and threatened species permitting and research branches and have seen it.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

So what if we're ruining ecosystems just by existing and developing land, does this make it right to just throw our arms up and say "screw it" about whatever is left? THIS attitude is dangerous. We've done damage already, so who cares?

The least we could do, as conscious human beings, is to take care with what we do now on. This means not releasing anything that isn't indigenous to your area into your area, regardless of how small an effect you think it will have, because you really never know what will happen. That monitors in Florida are eating the eggs of animals doesn't just affect S. Fl., it could and can affect all the migratory species of birds that fly from Canada to Mexico and stop in Fl on the way. So now it's not just local Florida wildlife that is potentially suffering, but birds that live in Canada most of the year.

Calling it all hype is really, really understating it from an ecological stand point.

Have you even been reading the posts? No one has once said screw it do whatever. My whole point is you shouldn't release a captive animal into the wild because it's just that a captive animal. Nothing can change what already is but fear is what causes people to lose liberty and freedoms and it's potentially about to happen to our hobby if this HYPE isn't put in check.

 

[Colorful Creatures]

Me too! It probably comes down to money...Banning a whole taxon everywhere is less expensive and easier to enforce than figuring out exactly where it would be most needed and for which specific species. Enforcement and inspection budgets for stuff like this is pitiful. Changing or adding federal regulations is expensive and takes forever (and you have to work through Congress), so no one wants to have to revise them or correct what's wrong! I've worked for the USFWS before in endangered and threatened species permitting and research branches and have seen it.

This is my biggest fear as you have seen yourself. Govt will just flat out ban it like they do everything else.