I NEED HELP ASAP

jajeanpierre said:
I think you missed the part where I regretted ever going to the vet and wished I had just dispatched her myself.
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Well no I typed that before you said that. I am going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I get where you are coming from 100%, but I personally would want to do my best to save the animals life. This is a largely debated topic in animal keeping, and I understand that and am not mad at you for your opposite stance at all :).
 
cyberlocc said:
Okay so I am wrong about the water. That 60 secs of mist isn't enough every 3 hours (which is what I was saying). However you yourself just said "4 minutes in the morning, 10 minute in t afternoon, and 4 minutes in the evening." So another words, his 60 secs 3 times a day is not enough. Which is exactly what I said, that isn't enough.

So you, who has more experience mist more. But me saying that isnt enough is wrong? the 10 mins every 3 hours was an exaggeration, I dont think he really needs misted 10 mins every 3 hours. I was saying that 60 secs is not nearly enough, that will not maintain the humidity needed.

Jean didn't say that was long enough either, she said it could be, she said "that may be enough, Chris Anderson uses barely any water for his glass terrariums" And if this cham was in glass, from what I have read from Chris, that would likely be enough or more than enough. However as I have an enclosure very similar to OPs, I know 2 mins will not maintain the humidity needed.

As a matter of fact look at the thread, as there is other way more experienced members than me that are agreeing with the things I have said.

Okay now to the stuff with Jean, well we did have it out a bit. About Vitamin A. Here is the thing I still and will always stand by what I said. Vitamin A deficiency can and does cause liver and kidney failure. That really isn't up for debate by keepers, that is a debate for Vets which I am not and neither is she. I can provide links from vets all day of vets stating that. That is science not opinion.

At the end of the thread, his husbandry may not have killed this cham. I will admit its possible it was something else entirely. However the poor husbandry surely did not help, not at all do you disagree? Or are we suppose to just coddle him and say this wasn't your fault change nothing? Look at the members of the thread, and there comments. And realize that most of the people in this thread are stating the same thing as me, they are just not as outspoken/have more tact than I.

There is a prime example, Old Cham keeper, he has more experience than likely any one in this entire thread. Funny he said the same exact stuff I did, and even in the same tone. Yet to him you say nothing, but jump at me. I know you do not like me, and I am sorry for that, maybe you should just place me on your block list, I hope you have a great day.
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Dehydration would have killed this chameleon long ago, no? If he's had the Cham for that long, it didn't just heave over of out no where from dehydration. Also, I stated what I did PERSONALLY for misting. I didn't say my way is the only way or right way. I just don't see where you come off as en expert on the species when you've never owned one. I don't like you? Huh? I have no personal feelings towards you. I don't even know you. It's your tone and attitude on here buddy. Oldchamkeeper has EXPERIENCE with these guys. And said what needs to be said, in a proper manner. You only commented for your own sake. Have a nice night as well.
 
Nicholasdeaan said:
Dehydration would have killed this chameleon long ago, no? If he's had the Cham for that long, it didn't just heave over of out no where from dehydration. Also, I stated what I did PERSONALLY for misting. I didn't say my way is the only way or right way. I just don't see where you come off as en expert on the species when you've never owned one. I don't like you? Huh? I have no personal feelings towards you. I don't even know you. It's your tone and attitude on here buddy. Oldchamkeeper has EXPERIENCE with these guys. And said what needs to be said, in a proper manner. You only commented for your own sake. Have a nice night as well.
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I only commented for my own sake? What since does that make at all in any way. I also dont think this cham died of dehydration. I think more hydration could have helped, as I have seen many times that stated by very experienced people, I think the Vit A issues killed this cham.

He said the same thing as I did, in a very similar manner. So again you are singling me out.

As to you "dont like the way I act here" Well that comes right back full circle. I know that I lack tact, and am a very brash person by nature. I do not try to offended most of the time though it may be perceived that way. Try to remember, we are on the internet and what you think is me having an attitude may not be. I did not have an attitude with Jean, I like Jean, I may disagree with her on that thing, doesn't mean I am mad or have an attitude.

If I want to have an attitude you will know it. My earlier posts in this thread display such as do similar threads, those aside I have never had an attitude on here.
 
cyberlocc said:
Okay so I am wrong about the water. That 60 secs of mist isn't enough every 3 hours (which is what I was saying). However you yourself just said "4 minutes in the morning, 10 minute in t afternoon, and 4 minutes in the evening." So another words, his 60 secs 3 times a day is not enough. Which is exactly what I said, that isn't enough.

So you, who has more experience mist more. But me saying that isnt enough is wrong? the 10 mins every 3 hours was an exaggeration, I dont think he really needs misted 10 mins every 3 hours. I was saying that 60 secs is not nearly enough, that will not maintain the humidity needed.

Jean didn't say that was long enough either, she said it could be, she said "that may be enough, Chris Anderson uses barely any water for his glass terrariums" And if this cham was in glass, from what I have read from Chris, that would likely be enough or more than enough. However as I have an enclosure very similar to OPs, I know 2 mins will not maintain the humidity needed.

As a matter of fact look at the thread, as there is other way more experienced members than me that are agreeing with the things I have said.

Okay now to the stuff with Jean, well we did have it out a bit. About Vitamin A. Here is the thing I still and will always stand by what I said. Vitamin A deficiency can and does cause liver and kidney failure. That really isn't up for debate by keepers, that is a debate for Vets which I am not and neither is she. I can provide links from vets all day of vets stating that. That is science not opinion. However maybe she knows a vet that says differently. that is fine, she chooses to follow that vets logic behind it. I choose to follow ferrits and the numerous study's done on it. Google it and see how many links tell you that.

A Vit A deficiency causing that issue is also not only a cham problem. That is a reptile wide problem, and while yes I am new to chameleons I am not new to reptiles.

At the end of the thread, his husbandry may not have killed this cham. I will admit its possible it was something else entirely. However the poor husbandry surely did not help, not at all do you disagree? Or are we suppose to just coddle him and say this wasn't your fault change nothing? Look at the members of the thread, and there comments. And realize that most of the people in this thread are stating the same thing as me, they are just not as outspoken/have more tact than I.

There is a prime example, Old Cham keeper, he has more experience than likely any one in this entire thread. Funny he said the same exact stuff I did, and even in the same tone. Yet to him you say nothing, but jump at me.

I am sorry if I offend you or her or anyone else aside from OP. I see what this entire thread as animal abuse. It 100% angers me, and when that happens I will speak my truthful mind.

I know you do not like me, and I am sorry for that, maybe you should just place me on your block list, I hope you have a great day.
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Did you not read the thread? He was misting a minute every hour. He normally misted a minute every three hours but when he started to decline he upped the misting. Nothing about that chameleon looked dehydrated to me. Misting wasn't his problem.

Too much Vitamin A causes liver damage and all kinds of problems, not a deficiency. Show me a reference to organ failure by a Vitamin A deficiency. Perhaps you are mixing up hypervitaminosis with hypovitaminosis.

Really, I don't think the husbandry was all that poor, certainly not poor enough to have a chameleon so weak it couldn't hold onto a perch. Be careful about using mob consensus and relying on what "everyone" says. Sometimes "everyone" is just parroting what "everyone" else has said and it might just be pure rubbish.
 
jajeanpierre said:
Did you not read the thread? He was misting a minute every hour. He normally misted a minute every three hours but when he started to decline he upped the misting. Nothing about that chameleon looked dehydrated to me. Misting wasn't his problem.

Too much Vitamin A causes liver damage and all kinds of problems, not a deficiency. Show me a reference to organ failure by a Vitamin A deficiency. Perhaps you are mixing up hypervitaminosis with hypovitaminosis.

Really, I don't think the husbandry was all that poor, certainly not poor enough to have a chameleon so weak it couldn't hold onto a perch. Be careful about using mob consensus and relying on what "everyone" says. Sometimes "everyone" is just parroting what "everyone" else has said and it might just be pure rubbish.
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I agree. It didn't look dehydrated. This chameleon would have died long ago. They don't just "get along fine " without water. I absolutely love Jacksons. They're such sweet little fellows. I think Montanes can be easier to kill being they show sickness or symptoms so late and far along progressed. They're to tough for their own good.
 
DaChameleonKing said:
Please stop fighting about what I did wrong. I have talked to the owners of Kammerflage kreations sent them pictures and stuff about King. They said he looks old and I agree I just think he is old and King's time has come. I have learned a lesson so lets move on.
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Hey kid,I feel so sorry for u on this thread, Ur thread is about to hit millions hits,this is how adults arguing and they won't ever stop,America loves DRAMA,thats when all the Jerry Springer n Maury Povich shows are so popular on TV....."U are the Father of this baby; my Ex stole ur boyfriend...blah blah blah,....."so I suggest when u get older,find urself a kind hearted girlfriend or wife ,and be selective on all ur friends,so u wont be end up like alphakenc myself,since my best friend try to date my step sis n my step sis think he is a perfect man (I know she has a imagination of Disney boyfriend style of 50shades) n my ex grl is even crazier,if she doesnt like the way I express my opinions,she will start a drama by throwing her size 5 shoes along with her large tempax at me,so when u grow older in the future,learn to be nice to everyone n walk away the unnecessary dramas,ur life will be much much happier that way.....R.I.P King n best luck to ur 5months old panther cham from krammer kreation :)
 
MeruJack said:
NO LETTUCE. It has no nutritional value. That's why humans eat it when they are on weight loss diets. It is listed above as a food to avoid. You can get a big bag of greens (collard greens, mustard greens, etc.) for $3 at Safeway. NO LETTUCE!
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To
MeruJack said:
NO LETTUCE. It has no nutritional value. That's why humans eat it when they are on weight loss diets. It is listed above as a food to avoid. You can get a big bag of greens (collard greens, mustard greens, etc.) for $3 at Safeway. NO LETTUCE!
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please "no nutritional value" is hyperbole, which I love using, but I am a dramatic person who often generalizes oft heard nuggets of wisdom as fact with out independent empirical verification.
 
jajeanpierre said:
Did you not read the thread? He was misting a minute every hour. He normally misted a minute every three hours but when he started to decline he upped the misting. Nothing about that chameleon looked dehydrated to me. Misting wasn't his problem.

Too much Vitamin A causes liver damage and all kinds of problems, not a deficiency. Show me a reference to organ failure by a Vitamin A deficiency. Perhaps you are mixing up hypervitaminosis with hypovitaminosis.

Really, I don't think the husbandry was all that poor, certainly not poor enough to have a chameleon so weak it couldn't hold onto a perch. Be careful about using mob consensus and relying on what "everyone" says. Sometimes "everyone" is just parroting what "everyone" else has said and it might just be pure rubbish.
Click to expand...

Yes you are correct, I had them reversed my apologies.

However the study I posted earlier on the subject is still correct. All the symptoms this cham had are signs of Hypovitaminosis A, which can also cause seizures and acute death.

A lack of Vitamin A will 100% make the chameleon too weak to hold on to a branch.

The symptoms i seen he had, were

Swelling around the eyes - (they look swollen to me but that is debatable, so we will call that a maybe)
Loss of appetite
Closing of the eyes (kind of combos with the swelling, I think)
Difficulty with maintaining a grip or posture
Skin abnormalities (not really sure if brown skin applies? another maybe)

Then we go back to a very good, highly respected by some very experienced members, saw the cham and stated it was Hypovitaminosis A. If the vet would not have been one I have seen brought up with great things on numerous occasions I would not have trusted his diagnosis. However the Symptoms, the Vets Diagnosis line up as does the care of the cham.

I am actually in a similar position to OP with a cham from the same supplier that also seems to be suffering from Vit A issues, and I just got him, which leads more to the Vit A issues were present long before his purchase and this wasn't WC. (though its a Jackson so likely was? Maybe it was LTC?)
 
TheVeiledProphet said:
To

please "no nutritional value" is hyperbole, which I love using, but I am a dramatic person who often generalizes oft heard nuggets of wisdom as fact with out independent empirical verification.
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Ah TheVeiledProphet,we met again in this drama soapbox,Plz grab some popcorn n watch the dramas together with alphakenc the "panther Pope" welcome!!!(y)
 
This is the best thread in the history of chameleonforum.com in my personal opinion. (Long time lurker,recent prolific poster) And I say we Quit messing around , build that WALL OF SHAME ( thumbs up if you know what I mean) and we place OP right at the top. He is clearly suffering from "affluenza" and him and his mother are probably on route to Cancun right now to buy a black market box of underground Mexican chameleons.
 
Virgil1972 said:
here is the link. It is kinda like this thread.
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LOL, ya thats this thread. I am sorry to anyone if I offended them, wasn't my intent. I can get a little too intense at times. You know Once I get excited "there just aint no stopping, my shuts down and my IQ starts dropping"

I am going to wacth some jerry now lol.
 
TheVeiledProphet said:
This is the best thread in the history of chameleonforum.com in my personal opinion. (Long time lurker,recent prolific poster) And I say we Quit messing around , build that WALL OF SHAME ( thumbs up if you know what I mean) and we place OP right at the top. He is clearly suffering from "affluenza" and him and his mother are probably on route to Cancun right now to buy a black market box of underground Mexican chameleons.
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Did the beso value went up:rolleyes:
 
TheVeiledProphet said:
This is the best thread in the history of chameleonforum.com in my personal opinion. (Long time lurker,recent prolific poster) And I say we Quit messing around , build that WALL OF SHAME ( thumbs up if you know what I mean) and we place OP right at the top. He is clearly suffering from "affluenza" and him and his mother are probably on route to Cancun right now to buy a black market box of underground Mexican chameleons.
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The best?? That's hyperbole.
 
cyberlocc said:
Yes you are correct, I had them reversed my apologies.

However the study I posted earlier on the subject is still correct. All the symptoms this cham had are signs of Hypovitaminosis A, which can also cause seizures and acute death.

A lack of Vitamin A will 100% make the chameleon too weak to hold on to a branch.

The symptoms i seen he had, were

Swelling around the eyes - (they look swollen to me but that is debatable, so we will call that a maybe)
Loss of appetite
Closing of the eyes (kind of combos with the swelling, I think)
Difficulty with maintaining a grip or posture
Skin abnormalities (not really sure if brown skin applies? another maybe)

Then we go back to a very good, highly respected by some very experienced members, saw the cham and stated it was Hypovitaminosis A. If the vet would not have been one I have seen brought up with great things on numerous occasions I would not have trusted his diagnosis. However the Symptoms, the Vets Diagnosis line up as does the care of the cham.

I am actually in a similar position to OP with a cham from the same supplier that also seems to be suffering from Vit A issues, and I just got him, which leads more to the Vit A issues were present long before his purchase and this wasn't WC. (though its a Jackson so likely was? Maybe it was LTC?)
Click to expand...

Where to you get your information? You really need to read scientific papers and not rely on group think.

Weakness and falling off branches is NOT low Vitamin A.

Try this paper:
http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/sae/603.pdf?la=1
 
jajeanpierre said:
What makes you so sure of that? They didn't get all the best but they didn't get all the worst I can guarantee you that. That whole shipment was a mess.
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The pictures and descriptions of the animals they received, compared to the photos of the animals that you were sold, and that were available through the website. Yes, that shipment was pathetic.
 
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