Isis isn't pink

[summoner12]

Do you weigh him? measuring length isn't very productive... having an understanding of the animals weight will tell you a bit more.

The cham is young... give the little guy some time and just feed him right.

Do some research.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Pssh,

I think increasing his basking temps, increasing the frequency of feeding and possibly increasing the amount per feeding (might not be necessary while also increasing the frequency) will help a lot. Be sure to keep an eye on the basking temp after you change it to make sure you didn't accidentally move it too close but the combination of more food and increased digestion rates from the higher basking temps may help considerably. Make sure you continue to gutload well and provide good access to calcium and he should turn around. Its one of those things you should be able to learn a lot from and will be able to have a much better feel for in the future.

Chris

 

[pssh]

Summoner, Can you at least point me in the right direction? You keep saying to do research, but where can I find information about runt chameleons?

I don't weight him because my mom didn't want me getting a scale at the time. I'll ask her if she'll take me to get one soon. But wouldn't him growing indicate... Well, growth? And wouldn't such a large difference in growth indicate more weight gain as well comapred to a small amount of growth. That logic would only go so far, but I imagine he would have to gain weight to grow tha much without looking really thin? Or am I wrong to assume that?


Edit: so the whole odd length growth doesn't make too much sense Chris? I wasn't too worried because he was still growing, but everyone is starting to say things that would make sense based on logic, but he is bending the rules... I also don't want him to grow too fast anyways, so I'm not sure if I should just start treating him like a baby or not?

 

[summoner12]

A scale is your best bet. with a scale you can get a better idea of the animals mass. if you know how big he is and his weight you can get a better feeling of his health. Sure you can get an idea by looking at how thin he is... but tracking weight is pretty important in understanding your chams health. A lot of times chams lose weight when they have health issues. He isn't going to get shorter.... so knowing his length won't tell you much.

If he is indeed a runt, there isn't a ton to do other than feed him and maintain a healthy weight. I have a runt melleri. He is a eating and pooping machine...... but He doesn't grow. So I just keep him on a steady rate of feeding. He is prolly 1/3rd his hatch mate's weight. Runt chams don't always live a full life. I was warned my cham might not make it more than a couple of years. So, I just keep an extra eye on his needs. Like Chris said, you get a feel for things.

I think Chris gave some pretty solid advice. Try that and see what happens. And I do want to emphasize the caution in regards with adjusting the heat. Non of us want you coming back asking about treating a young burned chameleon, for several reasons, but mainly the chams own health.

 

[Chris Anderson]

so the whole odd length growth doesn't make too much sense Chris? I wasn't too worried because he was still growing, but everyone is starting to say things that would make sense based on logic, but he is bending the rules... I also don't want him to grow too fast anyways, so I'm not sure if I should just start treating him like a baby or not?

Growth is always going to be limited by nutrient availability. Even with low nutrient availability, a chameleon will grow, just very slowly. Its just like how a chameleon grows throughout its life, just slower once it reaches adulthood. One of the reasons growth slows is that once it gets to that age/size, it distributes it nutrients differently and allocates less toward growth and more toward other things like reproduction. If a growing chameleon is only able to allocate a small amount of nutrition toward growth (and needs the rest for maintenance), even though it still grows, it may not be growing at the rate it should be for its age/size. As mentioned, weight is a good way to keep track of overall health because it differentiates an increase in length from overall size.

I would feed him just about as much as he'll eat, at least until he puts on a couple more inches (and obviously the weight appropriate for that size). At a certain point with females you want to start to slow their food intake but that is closer to the time that they start to divert their nutritional intake toward reproduction. At this age, all his nutrients are going toward growth and maintenance so you don't need to worry too much.

Chris

 

[pssh]

Basking spot is still 6 inches away and I raised the lamp more above the cage with a higher watt bulb.

I wasn't prepared to get a face slap about my chams size all of a sudden. I'm trying to learning though. We'll just see if he actually catches up to other panthers or if he's just a small guy. It'd do you well if you cited something I stead of just saying do your research.

Edit: So he is either a runt or he was not fed properly before I recieved him?

 

[Elizadolots]

Don't most species have "runts"? And...if they are protected from predators (as in: are captive) don't runts do fine? I'm sure most of the U.S. Female Gymnastic Team at the last Olympics qualify as "runts"...they did okay.

"Runt" is really only an issue if something is "culling the litter"....If the runt is being saved then it's just a small specimen.

Really...there has to be this sort of "small" protocol if the species is to continue. Just ask yourself what would happen to humanity if "small" humans were eradicated at birth...

(okay...just because I'm ancient and don't know for sure you young people have the same experiences I do...if we eliminate variety in any species we eliminate the ability of the species to evolve. Just as I believe there is no "right" human, I believe there is no "right" chameleon.. Evolution requires differences.)

 

[Chris Anderson]

if we eliminate variety in any species we eliminate the ability of the species to evolve. Just as I believe there is no "right" human, I believe there is no "right" chameleon.. Evolution requires differences.)

Yes, evolution requires differences but evolution only occurs when those differences result in a differential survival or reproductive rate. If we don't select for certain traits within that variety (whether by elimination or selective breeding), there is no evolution.

Chris

 

[Elizadolots]

Huh?

How is you making a selection "evolution"?

Isn't that genetic control?

If Pssh wants to support a dwarf chameleon are you going to tell her she shouldn't? I'm sure you know how evil I could be in responding to that.

Just a comment: when you tossed in the word "select" you sort of brought in pictures of Hitler...

Evolution is not restrictive. It embraces off the norm variants as possibly being a viable branch.

Restricting breeding of "variants" is the Hitler deal...

I guess I say...Pick a side!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Huh?

How is you making a selection "evolution"?

Isn't that genetic control?

If Pssh wants to support a dwarf chameleon are you going to tell her she shouldn't? I'm sure you know how evil I could be in responding to that.

Just a comment: when you tossed in the word "select" you sort of brought in pictures of Hitler...

Evolution is not restrictive. It embraces off the norm variants as possibly being a viable branch.

Restricting breeding of "variants" is the Hitler deal...

I guess I say...Pick a side!

Elizadolots,

I think you need to brush up on your evolution before you start likening evolutionary processes to Hitler with someone who is getting their PhD in biology. Evolution is by definition the change in the frequency of genetic traits within a population. Those genetic traits are the variation within a population you speak of. The two processes that drive evolution are selection and drift. Drift is chance effecting the frequency of a trait. For drift to have an effect on the frequencies over selection, neither trait can have any benefit over the other. In the case of size and growth, this is not the case and as such, selection is the driving force of evolution. You clearly are throwing around terms without a clue of what they mean. Its probably wise to read up on them before you use them, particularly if you're then going to argue about what they are with someone.

Chris

 

[summoner12]

off topic a bit....

Don't most species have "runts"? And...if they are protected from predators (as in: are captive) don't runts do fine? I'm sure most of the U.S. Female Gymnastic Team at the last Olympics qualify as "runts"...they did okay.

"Runt" is really only an issue if something is "culling the litter"....If the runt is being saved then it's just a small specimen.

Really...there has to be this sort of "small" protocol if the species is to continue. Just ask yourself what would happen to humanity if "small" humans were eradicated at birth...

(okay...just because I'm ancient and don't know for sure you young people have the same experiences I do...if we eliminate variety in any species we eliminate the ability of the species to evolve. Just as I believe there is no "right" human, I believe there is no "right" chameleon.. Evolution requires differences.)

I don't know why in captivity runt melleri don't do well. But someone I would consider pretty high up on the 'expert' list told this to me. So, like she suggested, I just take care of him with a closer eye.

As an example.. not sure if it had to do with his size so much... but at a younger age he was bitten by crickets at night. He wouldn't wake up and shake them off. His tail became so badly bitten that we had to remove half his tail. Why was he getting bit? well, he never ate his food. Yes, I did remove the crickets after his tail issue was noticed. I have never had an issue with crickets like this before, even with baby chams. But he couldn't be left alone with crickets at any time of the day because they would go straight for the wound. I tried cup feeding and it didn't work. I fed horn worms and silk worms.... still not much luck. Finally took him to the vet and had the tail removed from the wound to the tip (about half the total length). After that he had a large growth spirt. He tripled his weight in 3.5 month. This goes to what Chris is saying about how nutrients are used (I think). I am sure his body was focusing more on his wound than his growth. Now... he is smaller than the others and he doesn't have a full tail. So what are his issues now? When he is around the other melleri they treat him like a 'child', the more alpha chams push him around and try to eat all the food offered to him. This is sorta normal melleri behavior but he doesn't move as fast as the others because of his tail and he also seems intimidated by the others. When another cham comes in to get the food he tends to cower away. He also has issues climbing because of his tail. He still hasn't figured out it's not a full length tail. So he does fall when in the large free range. This is why he lives alone in a cage. Since the move he has done better... but still not much growth, just steady weight and poop.

Just after removing the tail 4-18-2009

5-2-2009

5-22-2009 Chris's hatch mate, Pat was 188g on the same day I took the pic below.....

6-7-2009

Edit: sorry it says he is 70g

8-8-2009
Pat on the same day as this photo was taken, was 189g. He had kind of hit a wall in growing I guess.

 

[withlime]

Just a comment: when you tossed in the word "select" you sort of brought in pictures of Hitler...

Evolution is not restrictive. It embraces off the norm variants as possibly being a viable branch.

Restricting breeding of "variants" is the Hitler deal...

selective breeding ≠ genocide

and lets leave the talk about Hitler right there.

 

[Julirs]

Did anyone suggest a fecal? May be a good idea. I hope he is a tad younger and is about to hit a growth spurt. The word runt need not be used, but failure to thrive could be. He may have an issue that has not reared it's head as of yet. My MBD rescue Panther is about half the size of a regular Panther. My last to hatch out of my last clutch is a month younger than his brothers and considerably smaller-at 6 months they grew and grew. At any rate as mentioned-increase that poor guys food intake.

At any rate-this proves that lack of experience can create a problem-and a common theme is that people with lack of experience should not be guiding others. It takes years to personally observe growth rates of all ages, and to be able to troubleshoot problems. But-If you don't even realize you have a problem it creates even more problems.

pssh-this is a learning experience that will in turn make you more experienced.

 

[summoner12]

Did anyone suggest a fecal? May be a good idea. I hope he is a tad younger and is about to hit a growth spurt. The word runt need not be used, but failure to thrive could be. He may have an issue that has not reared it's head as of yet. My MBD rescue Panther is about half the size of a regular Panther. My last to hatch out of my last clutch is a month younger than his brothers and considerably smaller-at 6 months they grew and grew. At any rate as mentioned-increase that poor guys food intake.

I think the word runt is very fitting;

In a group of animals (usually a litter of animals born in multiple births), a runt is a member which is smaller and/or weaker than the others.[1] Due to its small size, a runt in a litter faces obvious disadvantages, including difficulties with competing with its siblings for survival and possible rejection from its mother. Therefore, in the wild, a runt is less likely to survive infancy

Runt
–noun
1.an animal that is small or stunted as compared with others of its kind.
2.the smallest or weakest of a litter, esp. of pigs or puppies.
3.a person who is small and contemptible: That runt causes most of the trouble at the meetings.
4.British Dialect.
a.an old or decayed tree stump.
b.an old cow or ox.
c.an ugly old woman; hag.

 

[Julirs]

Kevin-we are talking cold blooded animals here-where so much is influenced by food and temperature. I just do not think we can quite call this still young animal a runt.

We are so good as humans at keeping the disadvantaged alive where in the wild they would have been picked off.

I have not studied it-but is "runt" a term commonly used in reptiles?

 

[summoner12]

If this cham is smaller than it's clutch/hatch mates... wouldn't it be a runt? The word refers to it's size in comparison to the others of it's group.

Either way... it sounds like he needs to grow a bit.

 

[Julirs]

If this cham is smaller than it's clutch/hatch mates... wouldn't it be a runt? The word refers to it's size in comparison to the others of it's group.

Either way... it sounds like he needs to grow a bit.

I would have trouble calling them runts as so many just do grow more slowly and then catch up---I guess we will see.

 

[warpdrive]

I think the bigger question is...how can we call it a runt when we are not 100% sure that it is not just 1 to 2 months younger then believed?
this would make sence as to the size and coloration noticed since she has him.
...and yes, the growth noticed even after the decrease of food is normal for the age I'm thinking the animal is.

breeders can and do make mistakes.
even my Splat was a mistake from a site sponcered breeder.
I wound up getting a male from the wrong clutch. correct sire, wrong dame.
a clutch that was so new that it wasn't even on the website yet until a week after I had my cham.

Harry

 

[summoner12]

I would have trouble calling them runts as so many just do grow more slowly and then catch up---I guess we will see.

I imagine these little guys wouldn't have been able to make it out of the ground.

 

[Warrix642]

I would have trouble calling them runts as so many just do grow more slowly and then catch up---I guess we will see.

It would have more than likely died in nature from being smaller than the siblings. This is the definition of a runt. It would not have had the time to catch up/grow in nature.

As for the OP question. Im gonna go against the grain and say it is still female. I had a female tht I bought as a male tht looked EXACTLY like yours until she was about 10-11 months old then she turned orange/pink. Before then she was gray with lots of blues and greens like a male.