Please, help me! Veiled with MBD and constipation

[Pascalperfect]

My chameleon was diagnosed with MBD, his bones arent strong enough to pass feces and so the build-up is smothering his lungs, making it very hard for him to breathe.
We took him to the vet, and they recommended we leave him there so they can put fluids in him and try to make him pass feces. They have also been giving him lots of calcium to strenghten his bones.
He has made progress, they got him to pass feces through draining him and he passed a little by himself but not enough.

We called the vet asking what we can do, they recommended we put him down, because theres not much more they can do.
But the second option was we could take him home and continue what they were doing at the vet.

Has anyone been in this situation, I dont want to lose him!
If anyone has any tips, knows anything I can do, please share with me.

 

[brittanyt]

My chameleon was diagnosed with MBD, his bones arent strong enough to pass feces and so the build-up is smothering his lungs, making it very hard for him to breathe.
We took him to the vet, and they recommended we leave him there so they can put fluids in him and try to make him pass feces. They have also been giving him lots of calcium to strenghten his bones.
He has made progress, they got him to pass feces through draining him and he passed a little by himself but not enough.

We called the vet asking what we can do, they recommended we put him down, because theres not much more they can do.
But the second option was we could take him home and continue what they were doing at the vet.

Has anyone been in this situation, I dont want to lose him!
If anyone has any tips, knows anything I can do, please share with me.

I'm sorry .. my cham is sick too I know the feeling I just got back from the vet and they wanted to put mine down if her antibiotics do not work ... I'm realllly sorry :'(

 

[camimom]

can you post a photo of your cham pls?

 

[squeekz1992]

Hi,
I'm sorry about your baby.

Unfortunately, MBD is not reversible, but its progress can be slowed. The calcium shots should help with that.

As far as the impaction and not being able to breathe.....I can't tell you what to do, but if he isn't showing any improvement....If he seems to be suffering a lot and not getting any better..... That is a decision nobody can make for you...

I'm so sorry about your baby. Will you fill out the how to ask for help form in the health clinic?? Maybe we can tell what caused his situation and prevent it for any more chameleons you decide to adopt.

 

[Pascalperfect]

can you post a photo of your cham pls?

This was about a week ago.

 

[Pascalperfect]

Hi,
I'm sorry about your baby.

Unfortunately, MBD is not reversible, but its progress can be slowed. The calcium shots should help with that.

As far as the impaction and not being able to breathe.....I can't tell you what to do, but if he isn't showing any improvement....If he seems to be suffering a lot and not getting any better..... That is a decision nobody can make for you...

I'm so sorry about your baby. Will you fill out the how to ask for help form in the health clinic?? Maybe we can tell what caused his situation and prevent it for any more chameleons you decide to adopt.

So is there nothing that will bring him back? Is there nothing we can do for him to stay alive?

 

[Pascalperfect]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Veiled, hes about 8 months and was only around 2 weeks when I got him.
Handling - I take him out when I clean his cage, or re-arrange his plants which is around once a week.
Feeding - I feed him small crickets because he refused to eat the larger ones. I offer them to him around 2-3 times a day usually around 10 am and 2pm
Supplements - on the 5th and 20th of every month I dust his crickets with d3, on the 10th and 30th I used the multivitamin.
D3 -reptocal
Multivitamin- reptocal
plain calcium- blue iguana (cal-stron)
Watering - We have 3 drip systems going constantly, and turned off through the night. We mist him 3-4 times a day and make sure we see him drink before we stop misting.
Fecal Description - White or black, very liquidy.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Our cage is completely screen all around with aquarium film on the bottom. 2 x 2 x 4
Lighting - Zoomed, he has one normal house bulb 60 watt, & his uvb 5.0
Temperature - his basking spot is around 80 degrees and the bottom is around 70-75. We have two thermometers in his cage.
Humidity - Our humidity levels around between 60-80% throughout the day, we have almost completely live plants to help.
Plants - We are using live plants, a pothos and two umbrella plants.
Placement - Infront of a glass sliding door, away from any airconditioning vents or fans.
Location - Central Florida.

 

[carol5208]

I think he meant that MBD is not reversible.Your chameleon can live with it but it cannot be cured. Honestly your chameleon does not look bad like some chams with MBD. I have never heard of what you just explained. We have two vets on here and I hope that one of them sees this thread and can comment for you. It is hard to see your chameleons limbs from the picture so maybe it is worse than it looks

 

[Pascalperfect]

I think he meant that MBD is not reversible.Your chameleon can live with it but it cannot be cured. Honestly your chameleon does not look bad like some chams with MBD. I have never heard of what you just explained. We have two vets on here and I hope that one of them sees this thread and can comment for you.

We went to 3 different reptile hospitals and hes had around 6 different vets because no vet has seen this situation before.
They said it must be incredibly rare for this too happen because they dont know what to do, all they can do is treat him for the MBD and hope that everything else slowly cures itself along with re-strengthening his bones.

 

[carol5208]

Ijust saw you posted the ask for help form. You listed the calcium but did you ever use it? You should have been using the plain calcium with no d3 every day on all of your feeders. That is most likely what caused your MBD.

 

[Pascalperfect]

Ijust saw you posted the ask for help form. You listed the calcium but did you ever use it? You should have been using the plain calcium with no d3 every day on all of your feeders. That is most likely what caused your MBD.

We used it everyday. We have been very careful with supplements trying to avoid MBD, which is why we are so shocked and confused that this happened.

 

[Jay Sick]

Yo did you ask the vet to do a sonogram on him to see if he has swallowed something he can not pass ? I just had to take a friends cham to the vet for him because he and I thought he had swallowed plastic leaves off of a vine that was suppose to be unbreakable but that crazy little B****** found a way to yank them off so we found some on the floor of the cage and thought he may have swallowed some. He also was not eating as much as he used to but it is the change of the season and it may slow a cham down a little. Thankfully he did not swallow any some people will say x ray but a sonogram is way more accurate and yes it is possible to do a sonogram on a cham they have small receptors made for small animals like birds and what not.

 

[carol5208]

We used it everyday. We have been very careful with supplements trying to avoid MBD, which is why we are so shocked and confused that this happened.

considering you used the uvb bulb and the calcium, it is very odd that your chameleon got MBD. 9 times out of 10, when someone comes on here with a chameleon with MBD, there was one of these lacking in their husbandry. I was reading about some very strange cases where a chameleon cannot process d3 and therefore gets MBD. Maybe this is one of those cases. Are your chameleons limbs curvy?

 

[Pascalperfect]

considering you used the uvb bulb and the calcium, it is very odd that your chameleon got MBD. 9 times out of 10, when someone comes on here with a chameleon with MBD, there was one of these lacking in their husbandry. I was reading about some very strange cases where a chameleon cannot process d3 and therefore gets MBD. Maybe this is one of those cases. Are your chameleons limbs curvy?

His limbs are not curvy, or abnormal his stomache slightly caves inward but thats the only slight sign of MBD he has, he just started falling often and eventually didnt even bother crawling back up because he would fall back to the bottom of the cage, he has nothing broken but thats the reason why he was considered diagnosed with MBD because they said his muscles arent strong enough to hold him up right now.

 

[Pascalperfect]

Yo did you ask the vet to do a sonogram on him to see if he has swallowed something he can not pass ? I just had to take a friends cham to the vet for him because he and I thought he had swallowed plastic leaves off of a vine that was suppose to be unbreakable but that crazy little B****** found a way to yank them off so we found some on the floor of the cage and thought he may have swallowed some. He also was not eating as much as he used to but it is the change of the season and it may slow a cham down a little. Thankfully he did not swallow any some people will say x ray but a sonogram is way more accurate and yes it is possible to do a sonogram on a cham they have small receptors made for small animals like birds and what not.

They did xrays and there is nothing in his stomache at all right now, they completely drained him with all the enimas over a coarse of 3 days, now he needs plenty of fluids which is what we are concentrating on. the main problem right now is his kidneys are not working, he is having a hard time absorbing any calcium, so he now has a high acidness to his blood, because his lungs are also not functioning fully yet.
If we can get his kidneys back up and functioning then we believe he WILL survive.

 

[Elizadolots]

I find that diagnosis very weird. That is a beautiful animal and that casque screams "well nourished".

I would PM one or more of the vets that frequent the board and solicit their advice. The two I see here most often are Ferretinmyshoes and Dr. O.

I made their handles links, click to go to their profile, you can send a PM from there. Both have extensive chameleon experience and are extremely willing to help posters here.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

If there is a calcium deficiency there are multiple body systems affected. We all know bones suffer greatly with calcium deficiency, which is why there are so many limb deformities with MBD, but other systems are affected as well. And the degree to which different systems are affected can vary in individual cases. One of the systems that suffers when there is a lack of calcium is the musculature. Smooth muscle is what is responsible for gut motility, and if there is insufficient calcium for smooth muscle to function you can get ileus, or lack of gut movement. This can lead to constipation because there isn't enough calcium available for the smooth muscles in the intestinal wall to be strong enough to move the digested food down the tract and out. This is the same concept for females who are eggbound due to calcium deficiency - not enough calcium so the muscles aren't strong enough to actually push the eggs out.

The picture you posted does look good, however it isn't a good angle for evaluating how straight his legs are. There are cases of MBD that are mild enough to cause symptoms of calcium deficiency without the bone deformities yet, which may be what is happening here. Your husbandry sounds good but each animal is different and sometimes illness pops up despite good care.

You mentioned acidosis, so what did the rest of his bloodwork show? Did he have abnormalities associated with kidney dysfunction, like elevated uric acid? Did his calcium to phosphorus ratio indicate MBD? Did they say he had poor bone density on the x-rays?

As long as he is able to support himself enough to eat, drink and be able to bask I would not give up on him just yet. It may take a lot of nursing care, maybe force feedings, a hospital cage setup so he can't fall and hurt himself and liquid calcium supplementation, but sometimes they can make miraculous recoveries. But it's going to take a lot of TLC at home to et him back on the right track. If you're up for the challenge we will offer advice to try to help you as best we can!

 

[Elizadolots]

Ferret, can I ask you something? Have you ever seen an animal that looked this good who was unable to defecate because of MBD?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

There is always a possibility that there is another issue causing constipation rather than MBD. That's why I'm interested in what their diagnostics showed and if it was consistent with MBD. A calcium deficiency without being full blown MBD can still cause problems, though this isn't a common symptom in chams. Chronic dehydration and calcium deficiency are high on the list for constipation, as is inappropriate temperatures causing poor digestion, impaction, over feeding, feeding too many hard shelled bugs, parasites, or weird things like nerve problems or a mass causing an obstruction. Husbandry is always the biggest culprit, but after that is cleared then other diseases become a bigger concern.

 

[Elizadolots]

Thank you.

I want to say to the OP that I have found chameleons to be remarkably resilient. They can bounce back from pretty horrid situations and live comfortably.

So, as long as YOU see hope, there is hope.