Veiled Fetus *photos*

[SoCaliSon]

um,
I've read and re-read the post
nowhere is that stated by the threads author
that the embryo was "moving" and "struggling".

I know from my own examination of a veiled cham embryo
that they are not active and "breathing" ... the only response I was getting
was color and pattern changes in response to stimuli.
(mine was much further along in it's development).

Okay...

As you can see it's very far along, nails, scales, and eyelids are clearly developed. The eyes moved a bit, but the lids never opened... maybe because he could see through them already? Once separated from theamnion he began to breathe. Big breathes at first then settled into a normal pattern. The heart was clearly beating. Most of his skin was more like a fish than a chameleon's. We used warm water to hydrate him during this whole thing... poor guy.

You must have missed that.

There was also the mention that this was entirely needless
and that all the information was available via proper research.
well I'll ask you to please show us this research
that didn't involve the loss of an egg or it's embryo.
I remember searching for more detailed information and found nothing
regarding embryonic development.

I just did a google and found this in literally less than 5 minutes...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=3f75bf61d0c79d2d74a4fcf9afb010f1
and this 2 mins later...
http://books.google.com/books?id=8W...vY5JcCM&sig=bKI9onOF6H961PHWBtwGXq4v1Ik&hl=en
I actually learned a lot more there than from those pics to tell you the truth.
I also found another site with pics of 185 day embryo that was opened as well.

The OP said they looked fine and that he hadn't candled them. I think with a little more research they could have known that sometimes it does take unusually long... and that if done right it is safe to candle to egg to look for veins. I can understand if you candle the egg and it appears dead. At that point I am not against opening the egg. But if you discover a living embryo... I don't think it is right to keep alive for any amount of time... Just my opinion.

The human anatomical studies were conducted hundreds of years ago "without licensing" by mavericks.
There was always direct opposition by some moral authority at the time opposing them,
holding things back. The information that was gained by those individuals
allowed advancements in human medicine that has benefitted all, including the moralists (ironically).

This is very true... But they did not have the information available to them that we do... I have thousands of scientists research at my fingertips. You are referring to the roots of scientific study... Science and the publics acceptance of science has evolved. We are allowed to experiment and research these things... which is wonderful. IMO this incident was unnecessary, and executed for the wrong reason. You can learn something from it after the fact, but that does not change the ladder.


Have a good night everyone!

 

[Tyrenlds]

Here's a link to the High Resolution images;

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/tyrenlds/

 

[Esben]

Someone needs to fill me in on this , what exactly can you learn about this experiment?
He's just looking and poking at it. The only thing i can see ive learned about this is that it can live up to 1 hour when this small. That experiment wasnt right imo. only suffering

 

[Mesnik]

Nothing gained. Very cruel.

And this forum is here to help other KEEP their chameleons ALIVE by the use of good practices.

Definitely a loss.

My 2c.
R.

 

[Nicodemayo]

For everyone who in an up rage about these photos, don't post if you want to cause trouble!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Someone needs to fill me in on this , what exactly can you learn about this experiment?
He's just looking and poking at it. The only thing i can see ive learned about this is that it can live up to 1 hour when this small. That experiment wasnt right imo. only suffering

Nothing gained. Very cruel.

And this forum is here to help other KEEP their chameleons ALIVE by the use of good practices.

Definitely a loss.

My 2c.
R.

Mesnik,

This is a very short sided point of view. Good practices for keeping chameleons alive in captivity have been gathered and evolved from experimentation that usually ended in suffering and death of the animals involved. If it was not for the suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of chameleons before you started keeping yours, these practices would not be understood and our "success" in keeping them today would not be anything near what it is. The fact that you are keeping chameleons the way you are after such a history is in a way supporting past suffering and death but you have taken what has been learned from this to better provide for the animals you have taken into your care. Mistakes and sacrifices often take a great deal of replication before the full benefit of those sacrifices is understood with regard to that which has been learned from it. What makes it worth while is the long term benefit this increased knowledge and education provides for our ability to care for, breed, conserve and understand these animals.

It is very unfortunate that you learned nothing from this sacrifice. While it is unfortunate and sad that these sacrifices need to occur in order to learn most of what we know about chameleons, I have to argue that those who can look past their initial feelings can make these sacrifices extremely valuable experiences that can benefit our abilities in the future. I learned quite a bit seeing these photos and am actually more inclined to take a full clutch and perform a developmental series examination of development in the egg then I was before. Understanding the process of development during incubation is a great use to incubation strategies. By understanding how the embryo develops at different stages we can better understand possible requirements for the incubation process as well as understand what factors cause delay in hatching or even death in the eggs. By sacrificing a single egg in a clutch when there is concern about the state of the clutch as a whole, we can learn how to notice issues in a clutch and better gauge their development and needs. Just because you can't find anything to learn from these types of situations does not mean they are useless and that others can't.

This forum is here to exchange information about chameleons, one aspect being their care. There are many other chameleon related topics that this forum caters to and the assumption that the only thing that matters is keeping them in a cage is really quite a cruel and extremely selfish mentality to chameleons as a whole in itself.

Some of you may be familiar with the following quote: "In the end, we will only conserve what we love. We will only love what we understand. We will only understand what we are taught." In order to teach anyone anything about chameleons, we ourselves have to learn about them and some times this necessitates sacrifices. The long term benefit, however, often far out weighs the loss in my opinion.

Chris

 

[CammieNLeno]

Mesnik,

This is a very short sided point of view. Good practices for keeping chameleons alive in captivity have been gathered and evolved from experimentation that usually ended in suffering and death of the animals involved. If it was not for the suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of chameleons before you started keeping yours, these practices would not be understood and our "success" in keeping them today would not be anything near what it is. The fact that you are keeping chameleons the way you are after such a history is in a way supporting past suffering and death but you have taken what has been learned from this to better provide for the animals you have taken into your care. Mistakes and sacrifices often take a great deal of replication before the full benefit of those sacrifices is understood with regard to that which has been learned from it. What makes it worth while is the long term benefit this increased knowledge and education provides for our ability to care for, breed, conserve and understand these animals.

It is very unfortunate that you learned nothing from this sacrifice. While it is unfortunate and sad that these sacrifices need to occur in order to learn most of what we know about chameleons, I have to argue that those who can look past their initial feelings can make these sacrifices extremely valuable experiences that can benefit our abilities in the future. I learned quite a bit seeing these photos and am actually more inclined to take a full clutch and perform a developmental series examination of development in the egg then I was before. Understanding the process of development during incubation is a great use to incubation strategies. By understanding how the embryo develops at different stages we can better understand possible requirements for the incubation process as well as understand what factors cause delay in hatching or even death in the eggs. By sacrificing a single egg in a clutch when there is concern about the state of the clutch as a whole, we can learn how to notice issues in a clutch and better gauge their development and needs. Just because you can't find anything to learn from these types of situations does not mean they are useless and that others can't.

This forum is here to exchange information about chameleons, one aspect being their care. There are many other chameleon related topics that this forum caters to and the assumption that the only thing that matters is keeping them in a cage is really quite a cruel and extremely selfish mentality to chameleons as a whole in itself.

Some of you may be familiar with the following quote: "In the end, we will only conserve what we love. We will only love what we understand. We will only understand what we are taught." In order to teach anyone anything about chameleons, we ourselves have to learn about them and some times this necessitates sacrifices. The long term benefit, however, often far out weighs the loss in my opinion.

Chris

I have kept out of this thread because my response would defiantly come out wrong - but I just wanted to say that is is very refreshing to finally read an intelligent well thought out post for a change. All i have read so far is 6 pages of "animal rights" type mentality that the OP is some big scary man that a bad bad person.

Thank you Chris for your post.

 

[dodolah]

i'm all for advancing the science and the knowledge for chameleon care.
But i am a bit squeamish when the reason is out of curiosity.
I guess i am a bit passionate in animal since my parents used to have an animal shelter that save illegal captured wild animals.

No one answered my Q.

Is there really absolutely no better way to know whether the egg is still viable without actually cutting it open?
If there isn't, then i guess it's fair.
If there is, why not do that first?

(no offense to all).
I think the one that differentiate this is the sole intention of why such is done.

I do however still find the picture fascinating.

 

[newyorkbreed]

Tyrenlds,
Thanks for sacrificing one of your clutch for the benefit of real time data.
I do find it a bit awkward to say the least, However, I appreciate that someone actually took the time/sacrifice in order to enlighten themselves and forwarded the information to me on what I think is the most informative forum around.

SoCaliSon,
Thanks for the links referring to procedures like this one.
The only downfall I see is that it came some 20 replies later and as
a cham owner I would come hear(forum) first before I google anything.
Googling for me comes at that time of desperation due to not finding the info here and I think we all know that's kind of impossible..

Thanks to all for all the information..

 

[SoCaliSon]

Chris... I would be all for someone with your education and experience performing the examination you speak of. I actually think it would be very beneficial for the community. But I would hope that you would agree that this is not something for the everyday hobbyist to be trying on their own with out the proper eudactation or guidance.

I just think it needs to made clear that this operation from the begininning was not exectued for the purpose of learning anything on the development of embryos, It was clearly stated that he cut one open because they curious on the fertility of the eggs. Mistake... And a forgivable... We all make them. I do think it was good to record the whole process in pictures as the pictures can serve to educate... But we can't ignore the underlying point I want to make sure is understood... This is not how you check to see if your eggs are fertile.

Nicodemayo:

For everyone who in an up rage about these photos, don't post if you want to cause trouble!

C'mon now...I think were are having a very levelheaded mature discussion that can really open up minds to the way other herpers feel about the topic. Nobody is trying to cause trouble... and I think everyone has made a great effort to remain respectful of what others are saying.

CammieNLeno:

All i have read so far is 6 pages of "animal rights" type mentality that the OP is some big scary man that a bad bad person.

I do think that we must respect animals as we are animals and realize that they do have rights. Honestly I would not consider myself an "animal right activist" as I have found myself on the other side of the debate from them in several cases. I completely agree with everything chris is saying... Scientific study on animals is necessary to gain an understanding and for the betterment of the enitre population. Acutually chris... I would be really interested in reading any type of material from your studies on chameleons... I would find that incredibally facinating. Wish I was going to school in Florida cause I would love to enroll in one of your labs.

newyorkbreed:

Thanks for the links referring to procedures like this one.
The only downfall I see is that it came some 20 replies later and as
a cham owner I would come hear(forum) first before I google anything.
Googling for me comes at that time of desperation due to not finding the info here and I think we all know that's kind of impossible..

This is always my first reference with anything chams as well... I use google as the ultimate reference source of anything I am looking for as it will bring up forum threads, as well as the stuff you don't find on the forums like published scientific articles and what not. I really recommend to look into anything you are wanting to learn about. It's the he ulitmate constanly updating encyclopedia. Hell... I found this site through google. The only downside to one of those links is that you must pay for a membership to read the articles.
I didn't see a need to post up the links on thread right away because he wasn't asking where he could do research... If he had asked what an embryo looked like, or what happened in the develpment process I would have posted those up before... But that was not the purpose of the operation... Only a side note that I made while trying to make the point that there was no point in keeping him alive for an hour while examining. If there was some sort of observation that needed to be made on a live fetus for the sake of science that would be one thing. But that was not the case here, therefore, I believe that it was not hadled correctly. If the mistake would have been accepted from the begining, right as they realized it was still alive, and they would have dispatched the little guy quickly after being exposed like that... Then at that point I would find nothing wrong with the poster continue to disect and observe as a lot can be learned. The fact that it was needlesly kept alive like that for an hour in my eyes just backs up what I said that if things like this are going to be done it needs to be under the guidance of someone who is qualified, to make sure it is done correctly.

Thanks Again everyone for the respectfull discussion.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Dodolah

No one answered my Q.

Is there really absolutely no better way to know whether the egg is still viable without actually cutting it open?
If there isn't, then i guess it's fair.
If there is, why not do that first?

Somebody correct me if I am wrong... but the safe way is to keep the orientation of the egg the same while holding a light at safe distance behind the egg in a dark room, looking for small veins showing in the illuminated egg indicating that the egg is fertile. From what I gathered the OP was under the impression that handling the eggs to candle them would kill them(like cutting one open wouldn't)... But all my research tells me that this is the way to do it. I agree... that should have been done first.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Quote:
"Chris... I would be all for someone with your education and experience performing the examination you speak of. I actually think it would be very beneficial for the community. But I would hope that you would agree that this is not something for the everyday hobbyist to be trying on their own with out the proper education or guidance."

I have done it, when eggs were damaged, or something was clearly wrong with them -
Well, WELL before I had the experience and education.

In fact, part of the reason I went through the schooling I did was a result of such "experiments". If an animal died, I cut them right open and looked at the parts under a microscope. A fresh, wormy turd from a pet-store chameleon was a treasure! I cold spend hours looking at reptile blood and guts. When I could get a hold of an embryo, it was fascinating. Now, I know that the best way to tell if an egg is fertile is to see if it don't rot after a month or two. Back then, I didn't.

Keep in mind, always, that the people with the experience and education, most likely GOT that experience and education as a result of doing stuff LIKE this. I wouldn't have wanted a zoology degree if I hadn't been messing wiht animals to the degree that I was.

 

[Mesnik]

Chris,

SoCaliSon hit it: I agree with your comments 100%, but the fact in question was not done to fit your phylosophy.

And in a nut shell, what have you learned for this particular experiment that you can pass on to me so I can also enjoy it the way you did?

I am not an "animal lover" or "tree hugger", it is just plain common sense.

I am sorry if my opinion made some think that it was posted just to flame things up. I surf this forum A LOT and don't post that much - I don't have time to waste. My post had the purpose of discouring people that are sacrificing lives without a good purpose. One wanted to check if the eggs were still fertile, fine. Crack one open, find out. Put an end to it.

Over & out.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Eric:

I have done it, when eggs were damaged, or something was clearly wrong with them -
Well, WELL before I had the experience and education.

In fact, part of the reason I went through the schooling I did was a result of such "experiments". If an animal died, I cut them right open and looked at the parts under a microscope. A fresh, wormy turd from a pet-store chameleon was a treasure! I cold spend hours looking at reptile blood and guts. When I could get a hold of an embryo, it was fascinating..

You said when something is clearly wrong with the egg or damaged... in that case the odds are you are dealing with an egg that won't make it anyway... There is no issue... Most people just throw them in the trash anyway so i think a little observation is definatley more beneficial than that. But this was not the case here. This was a perfectly healthy egg that was just taking longer to incubate than some, which happens. The only reason it died is it that it was uneccesarilly cut open to find out something that could have been learned by other methods or simple patience ... It should have been gently put down right away. There was no need to sit and observe the live embryo slowly fade away from being prematurely hatched from its shell.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Examining an animal that died of other means is one thing, I would call it innocent curiosity. But when you are examining an animal that was healthy and is dying becasue of what you are doing... you are now in very touchy territory and I believe that should be practiced only by qualified people who can make sure that the full potential of the examination is reached. At that point the curiosity tends to loose a bit of it's innocence don't you think?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I don't feel it's wrong to do somethign like this - but, I think you shoudl have some real goals for doig such a thing. Just to see if it's fertile, I don't know. *I* wouldn't.

But curiosity itself isn't enough - if you're trying to learn something, and not just "what it looks like", then it's justifiable. For instance, if you want to track develoment over the months and temperature changes, or to see HOW the toes or eyes develop, an dhow it differs from other "normal" lizards.

It's my opinion tht you dont' have to be a scientist to do somethign like this - but you should at least have scientific reasonign behind it.

For example: cloning in order to learn how to clone human organs, skin, limbs, etc. GOOD. Cloning human embryos just to see if you can clone human embryos... shady. Why is it shady in my opinion? Because the goals are not real scientific, they're JUST for curiosity.

Although I make an exception for the guys trying to clone mammoths and dinosaurs. To hell with morality - I want to see dinosaurs.

 

[Chris Anderson]

SoCaliSon,

There has recently been a project by Cornell University (where I got my undergraduate degree) to foster a program called Citizen Science. This project enlists the help of every day people who have no formal training to assist in the collection of data for research purposes. Specifically, this is done for such things as collecting visitation data for bird species at feeders by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology to the feeders of private individuals but its purpose and use if much more wide spread. Individuals who have years of experience and various degrees following their name are not the only ones who are capable of contributing to our basis of knowledge. There are so many things private citizens with little to no formal training can do to contribute themselves. These photographs are excellent examples. These photos were taken simply out of curiosity but major scientific findings have been based on less and the fact that photographic sequences were gathered and provided to the public as a whole shows that this curiosity was not conducted without grounds or without proper forethought. I would in fact congratulate the original poster on a job well done! Even without training, this poster documented his investigative examination and it will benefit many of us (although some individuals are by their own admission too narrow minded to benefit from them).

Sometimes the most informative experiments are not followed by the comment "eureka" but rather "huh, isn't that weird". This individual may not have set out to discover anything in particular but that does not mean their discoveries were not extremely valuable and beneficial.

Dodalah,

To answer your question, I know of no better method to determine the fertility of a clutch of eggs at this stage of development and I would agree with the original poster that sacrificing an egg would be the best way to determine their status. This far along in development, candling an egg would not show you anything as the embryo would block any silhouette you'd see and therefore eliminate any information you'd be able to tell from trying to candle it.

Mensik,

I already explained many of the things I was able to learn from these photos and you've already made it clear that everything I learned was beyond you're ability to appreciate as you have once again shown by your most recent post. I'm not sure what it is you want me to say...sorry you are not able to appreciate such points of view...

Chris

 

[Mesnik]

Okay, time for some global analysis... In any case, even though we don't personnaly know everyone here, we are ONE group of friends, right?

For most of it, on this issue, we are all in agreement with the different points that have been raised.

This whole thing had goods and bads, and for different people different goods and different bads will apply.

I am sure this will not be the last word on this thread, but anyway, go back to enjoy all this forum provides us!!

And by the way, the weather here in Michigan is warming up to the point that I am excited to bring Izzy out for some real sun!! And as seen on another post, I will keep a close eye on him so he doesn't disappear trying to go back to Yemen!!!


Take care guys.
r.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Chris:

There has recently been a project by Cornell University (where I got my undergraduate degree) to foster a program called Citizen Science. This project enlists the help of every day people who have no formal training to assist in the collection of data for research purposes. Specifically, this is done for such things as collecting visitation data for bird species at feeders by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology to the feeders of private individuals but its purpose and use if much more wide spread. Individuals who have years of experience and various degrees following their name are not the only ones who are capable of contributing to our basis of knowledge. There are so many things private citizens with little to no formal training can do to contribute themselves. These photographs are excellent examples. These photos were taken simply out of curiosity but major scientific findings have been based on less and the fact that photographic sequences were gathered and provided to the public as a whole shows that this curiosity was not conducted without grounds or without proper forethought. I would in fact congratulate the original poster on a job well done! Even without training, this poster documented his investigative examination and it will benefit many of us (although some individuals are by their own admission too narrow minded to benefit from them).

Sometimes the most informative experiments are not followed by the comment "eureka" but rather "huh, isn't that weird". This individual may not have set out to discover anything in particular but that does not mean their discoveries were not extremely valuable and beneficial.

I like the idea of this "citizen science" program... There is a lot of observational wok that can be done by inexperienced people... And it sounds like this is the perfect way to let sprouting scientists get their feet wet by handling this stuff. But from the description you gave me of it it doesn't sound like they are encouraging everyday unexperienced "citizens" to go out and conduct their own private examinations on live animal fetuses. While experiements like this must take place in science, WE MUST make sure that we keep a tight leash on things like this making sure it is done for the right reasons, by the right people, to ensure it is done in the proper way. We as humans have the ability to take science in any directions it pulls us... But at the same time we have to watch where we are stepping.

I have refrained from making these ugly comparisons... But I can't any longer

What would think of someone with no formal education pulling eggs out nests in the wild... Or capturing wild animals to perform experiments on. In order to make sure we are more of a help than a hendrence on the environment these kind of studies and who performs them should be overseen by qualified people. Imagine the harm we could cause if everyone decided that it was okay for private parties to conduct scientific experiement on live animals at their own descretion alone.

If my cat was pregnant for an unussaully long amount of time but for some reason had not had kittens... Regardless of if I wanted to see if she really was pregnant... Or I was curious to see what kitten fetuses look like... Would you condsider it okay for me to try to force a labor or perform a kitty abortion on my own cat with no formal training. I know a cat seems a lot different but I believe it applies because we are talking about two scientific procedures both done on living animals. Just because the general population has a closer relationship with cats, and chams are just "lizards" it seems a lot more disturbing... But IMO these two operations are in the same field and should both be handled with attentivness and care... By a qualified person.
Experimenting with live fetuses is beginning to step on touchy ground... and should not be dabbled in by anyone who happens to just be curious.

To answer your question, I know of no better method to determine the fertility of a clutch of eggs at this stage of development and I would agree with the original poster that sacrificing an egg would be the best way to determine their status. This far along in development, candling an egg would not show you anything as the embryo would block any silhouette you'd see and therefore eliminate any information you'd be able to tell from trying to candle it.

You have a clutch of eggs that make it 8 MONTHS without turning yellow caving in or growing fungus... Is it really necessary to cut it open to see if it is fertile? I have never seen an infertile egg make it over a month without it clearly advertising to you that it was no good.

Sometimes the most informative experiments are not followed by the comment "eureka" but rather "huh, isn't that weird". This individual may not have set out to discover anything in particular but that does not mean their discoveries were not extremely valuable and beneficial.

The ends do not always justify the means... I could say I want to know what the human brain looks like... Kill someone and perform my own autopsy for the sake of "learning"(this is completely hypothetical)... Hell... I could even do it nice and neat and photograph the whole process... and somebody could probably learn something from them. Does that justify the killing? Maybe in the dark ages of scientific study but in todays world we have come to recognize this as wrong, and we MUST keep a tight leash on what we do as far science. We are the only creatures in the world who have gained enough of an understnding of science to completely wipe out life on earth... That given it has called for a new field in scientific study... Trying to make sure we don't ruin everything, while continuing our forward progression in evolution.

Sorry for the graphic comparisons... but I think they halp make my point. Tkae Care

 

[Vampire.queen]

I think it would be better to look up similar photos on the internet.. This is disgusting. I know this is just a drop in the sea- when you have like eighty eggs you still can miss one, but...