Admiral, There be Quads Here!

[jajeanpierre]

I feel as excited as Scotty, when they beamed up those Humpback whales in The Voyage Home!

I have quads! Lots and lots of quads!

Yesterday I went to Reptile Pets Direct to buy some crickets, and the owner lit up and said how glad he was to see me because the day before he had received a shipment from Cameroon. It wasn't expected and he had misplaced my phone number. We both thought the earliest that shipment would come in would be March or April IF it ever came in. It was a surprise for both of us.

Today I picked them up. What a scramble to get them sorted out in cages I didn't have. Thank you Perry for your suggestions of where to put them! I have cages in my garden tub (how appropriate) and in my guest bath.

I have a pair of Trioceros q. gracilior. The female (50g) looks gravid and in really good condition with bright red nails. Oh, I love those bright red nails! The male gracilior weighs 25g. He looks a bit thin, but he drank (they all drank) and ate a silkworm right in front of me.

I have three small quad quads, a male (13g) and two females (12g and 17g). One girl pooped in her deli cup on the way home, a nice big healthy-looking poop and the urates although orange one end, finished a nice fat sparkling white.

That gives me three pair of quad quads and one pair of graciliors. It looks like I'll need to learn about eggs sooner than I expected. Yikes!

I'll take pictures tomorrow.

 

[distortionz]

You've become quite the collector very fast lol

 

[jajeanpierre]

You've become quite the collector very fast lol

Actually, I decided to breed them. The collecting will be when I buy a Meller's.

I fell in love with their looks when I first saw them the day after that first importation of quads in something like 5 years. I just happened to be in the store the day after they arrived--pure luck. I hadn't appreciated how rare they were--they were just really gorgeous animals with the most beautiful eyes.

I decided to try to breed them if another shipment ever came in. I wanted three or four pair of unrelated wild-caught quad quads for the genetic diversity. There was no guarantee there would ever be another shipment, so I bought the captive bred of Tylene's that was available. I think if I had passed up on the opportunity to buy Panlong (the one Tylene bred), that new shipment would never have come in and my two wild caught males would have died of old age before I could find them females.

Yesterday I went into the importer's retail store to buy crickets only to find the second shipment in something like 5 years had arrived, not even 2 months after the first.

It's been a scramble today with caging but I think I'm okay until my new cages arrive. What is most worrying for me is the female that I think is gravid. I thought I would have more time to be ready for dealing with eggs. I'm hoping my quad Arcadia lights that I ordered arrive tomorrow so that my poor male veiled can have his nice lights back.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Thanks for posting that this new shipment has arrived. I too was expecting this shipment to arrive in March as well.

As far as you never breeding chameleons before with 3 pairs of Trioceros quadricornis you pardon the phrase are going to learn a crash course about how to breed Trioceros quadricornis. However with the Trioceros Quadricornis Coalition on the forums you should have some good breeders to consult.

Post pictures!!

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[ameverrit]

collector??? what is that in here?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for posting that this new shipment has arrived. I too was expecting this shipment to arrive in March as well.

As far as you never breeding chameleons before with 3 pairs of Trioceros quadricornis you pardon the phrase are going to learn a crash course about how to breed Trioceros quadricornis. However with the Trioceros Quadricornis Coalition on the forums you should have some good breeders to consult.

Post pictures!!

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

No No No--I am not on a "crash" course in keeping and breeding quads! No crashes. All adventure.

Yes, I've had a lot of help from many who have and have bred quads now and in the past. Some of it is conflicting information. Laurie, on one hand, thinks they are so difficult no one in Texas (where I live) can keep them alive more than 6 months and advises anyone from Texas not to ever think of a quad. The importer, at the other end of the spectrum, thinks they are pretty easy to keep. Most other keepers seem to be in the middle. I intend to prove quads in Texas will breed and flourish. Not much point in trying to establish a breeding population in the US if they can't be kept alive here, is it?

Silly me thought there was a book I could just buy about the species.

I'll try to get pictures today.

All of them except possibly the female gracilior are much younger than my two males from the previous shipment. They seem to be coping well with humanity--I hope it isn't just the shock of it all and they are less stressed by captivity. It is a pretty awful thing we do to animals, to snatch them so violently from their homes and ship them off.

 

[MelissaB]

Some of it is conflicting information. Laurie, on one hand, thinks they are so difficult no one in Texas (where I live) can keep them alive more than 6 months and advises anyone from Texas not to ever think of a quad. The importer, at the other end of the spectrum, thinks they are pretty easy to keep. Most other keepers seem to be in the middle. I intend to prove quads in Texas will breed and flourish. Not much point in trying to establish a breeding population in the US if they can't be kept alive here, is it?

Silly me thought there was a book I could just buy about the species.

I'll try to get pictures today.

In all fairness, the importer only has to keep them healthy and alive long enough to sell. Unless he is keeping them long term and breeding them, I'd take what he said with a grain of salt. I'm sure it can be done if you have good ac (which is also going to take away the humidity), and the correct environment for them, it just won't be as easy as somewhere with a cooler climate.

 

[jajeanpierre]

In all fairness, the importer only has to keep them healthy and alive long enough to sell. Unless he is keeping them long term and breeding them, I'd take what he said with a grain of salt. I'm sure it can be done if you have good ac (which is also going to take away the humidity), and the correct environment for them, it just won't be as easy as somewhere with a cooler climate.

Point taken but he does have to deal with them when they come into the country in their worst condition after being imported. The only time these animals are going to be in such bad shape is when they are getting ready to die.

When I spoke to him about it, he said that the only reason they are considered difficult is because they are rare. He said back in the 90s, they were imported regularly and were considered pretty much as easy to care for as a Panther or a Veiled. He said one breeder bred them by the thousands. He's not old enough to remember the 90s, so I take what he is saying with a grain of salt.

Linda Davison of Sticky Tongue Farms in her book CHAMELEONS, THEIR CARE AND BREEDING also considered them a good species to keep.

Like all chameleons, they don't live long so if someone in the US isn't breeding them in large numbers and no one is importing them, they will become extremely rare, and their scarcity has nothing to do with their requirements, just that the existing population died out from old age. It would only take three to four years for the species to completely die out without breeding or importing.

When I was going through this recent shipment with him to pick my individuals, I asked what I could expect for a mortality rate for wild caughts thinking I should buy extra expecting some to die. He wasn't worried about them up and dying on me. Right beside the gracilior cage was a cage of Sail Fins that came in the same shipment (I don't know what their species name is but it is not the two-horned Montiums). He told me that if I wanted one sail fin, I should buy four. It reminded me of a horse racing saying, "If you want to make a million dollars in horse racing, start with four million." He said the sail fins were really hard to keep alive, as were the Montiums. When I was first looking to buy one, he steered me away from the Montiums because they were difficult.

I don't know where they fit as far as difficulty. I think they are somewhere in the middle--not nearly as easy as the importer believes, but they can survive and thrive living indoors in Texas. I'm treating mine as if they are the most fragile creatures in the world and trying to get it perfect for them, but I don't know they are that fragile after they survive being imported. If I ever am lucky enough to get eggs, I might start pushing the envelope with them; however, I need to learn a lot more about keeping chameleons before I even think of doing that. Until I really have a good understanding of chameleons, I'll treat them as if they will up and die on me if I look at them funny.

 

[fluxlizard]

The importer, at the other end of the spectrum, thinks they are pretty easy to keep. Most other keepers seem to be in the middle. I intend to prove quads in Texas will breed and flourish. Not much point in trying to establish a breeding population in the US if they can't be kept alive here, is it?

I would immediately wonder

-how long the importer has ever kept a single quad

-if the importer has ever kept them around long enough to reproduce them

-if the importer has kept the same group long enough to go through all 4 seasons with them.

Seriously- I would not take what importers say without a healthy dose of scepticism and I've dealt with a number of them for nearly 25 years. Even the best of their lot are trying to move animals ASAP to minimize expense and losses. Very few have the time, patience, or energy to really have their own breeding programs going alongside. They have lots of short term experience, less long term when it comes to individual species.

I don't know that difficult is the right word, but the need for cool may be a problem over the long run. I'm even worried about it here and making careful plans- day cool in an ac is no problem. Night cool where temps stay in the 50s (or less- one guy who was very successful with breeding them in the mid 90s in a converted utility shed wrote something in a UK publication that I've lost now felt they should overwinter with night temps near freezing) can be more difficult.

In texas I think many places are a combo of problems where there is plenty of summer heat and few basements. How to fluctuate day/night temp becomes a problem to overcome- not an impossibility, but certainly a complication and potential expense that can be difficult.

You are already working through outdoor problems with the heat in your mind and I think are coming up with some good ideas to try but may not yet realize the caution you will need until you are into the actual experience- quads are hardy but heat can be the end of a quad in a few hours. Also depending on where you live, if night temps don't drop into the mid 60s or lower routinely, you may be in for long term problems and experience slow deterioration of condition.

At least that is my take on them. My info and experience with these is nearly 20 years old! I really need to get updated info and find out what the preferred supplement product on these is and what night drop people are using- I was a little surprised to hear distress in a post about the recent imports having been dropped near 50 during shipping. I would have considered that a good thing with what I understand of the species. So take what I am saying with a grain of salt too!

Except that I would not take on faith much of what an importer tells me. Not trying to be offensive to those in that profession that makes our magic possible, but a good 95% of the time I am disappointed by something when dealing with them - even the best of them (although of course I don't live close enough like you for them to have to see my face and cherry pick for me), and they really aren't in the business of good husbandry- only of price competition and moving animals quickly so their expenses don't do overcome their profit margin.

And yes- I think there are enough people far north of texas to make keeping quads worthwhile regardless of problems in texas. A better choice for the entire northern half of the US. There are plenty of people in the northeast and minneapolis, etc who could enjoy them - not everything worthwhile has to happen in Texas

 

[Mike Fisher]

He said one breeder bred them by the thousands.

Guess who?

 

[Dooley1]

This may end up being a steep learning curve.

 

[Mike Fisher]

FWIW, I kept mine mid to upper 60's F day, upper 50's F night in summer, Lower 60's F day and into the 40's F night in winter. Basking bulbs dimmed way down in summer, but brighter in winter so they can heat up in the mornings.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I was a little surprised to hear distress in a post about the recent imports having been dropped near 50 during shipping. I would have considered that a good thing with what I understand of the species.

Me too. That was my normal night temp.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Guess who?

I have the guys name and contact information (from the importer) but he has suffered a recent tragedy so I won't be contacting him for some time.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I have the guys name and contact information (from the importer) but he has suffered a recent tragedy so I won't be contacting him for some time.

There were a few of us. I was producing 300+ per year for quite a few years. Even then, they didn't get established in the USA. Just goes to show that if only a few people have success with them and those people move on to something else, the supply goes away. I thought they were here to stay and was quite surprised how difficult they were to acquire when I got back into the hobby. I decided to do other species instead and it has been a good experience.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I would immediately wonder

-how long the importer has ever kept a single quad

-if the importer has ever kept them around long enough to reproduce them

-if the importer has kept the same group long enough to go through all 4 seasons with them.

Seriously- I would not take what importers say without a healthy dose of scepticism and I've dealt with a number of them for nearly 25 years. Even the best of their lot are trying to move animals ASAP to minimize expense and losses. Very few have the time, patience, or energy to really have their own breeding programs going alongside. They have lots of short term experience, less long term when it comes to individual species.

I don't know that difficult is the right word, but the need for cool may be a problem over the long run. I'm even worried about it here and making careful plans- day cool in an ac is no problem. Night cool where temps stay in the 50s (or less- one guy who was very successful with breeding them in the mid 90s in a converted utility shed wrote something in a UK publication that I've lost now felt they should overwinter with night temps near freezing) can be more difficult.

In texas I think many places are a combo of problems where there is plenty of summer heat and few basements. How to fluctuate day/night temp becomes a problem to overcome- not an impossibility, but certainly a complication and potential expense that can be difficult.

You are already working through outdoor problems with the heat in your mind and I think are coming up with some good ideas to try but may not yet realize the caution you will need until you are into the actual experience- quads are hardy but heat can be the end of a quad in a few hours. Also depending on where you live, if night temps don't drop into the mid 60s or lower routinely, you may be in for long term problems and experience slow deterioration of condition.

At least that is my take on them. My info and experience with these is nearly 20 years old! I really need to get updated info and find out what the preferred supplement product on these is and what night drop people are using- I was a little surprised to hear distress in a post about the recent imports having been dropped near 50 during shipping. I would have considered that a good thing with what I understand of the species. So take what I am saying with a grain of salt too!

Except that I would not take on faith much of what an importer tells me. Not trying to be offensive to those in that profession that makes our magic possible, but a good 95% of the time I am disappointed by something when dealing with them - even the best of them (although of course I don't live close enough like you for them to have to see my face and cherry pick for me), and they really aren't in the business of good husbandry- only of price competition and moving animals quickly so their expenses don't do overcome their profit margin.

And yes- I think there are enough people far north of texas to make keeping quads worthwhile regardless of problems in texas. A better choice for the entire northern half of the US. There are plenty of people in the northeast and minneapolis, etc who could enjoy them - not everything worthwhile has to happen in Texas

Thanks you so much for all this information you've given me.

I understand what you are saying about the importer not dealing with them over the years. He was not basing it on his experience so much as someone else who used to breed them years ago. You? The importer's description of the numbers produced and the ease of keeping them might be a little exaggerated. Usually there are extreme positions on either end, with the truth being somewhere in the middle.

I also think cool at night is going to be my problem in the summer. I am thinking of getting a window a/c unit for the room the quads are in to cool it down into the 60s during the night. That's an easy fix.

I think my biggest problem will be in not immediately recognizing that a quad or any chameleon is in a bit of distress. Or forgetting something. I won't be putting them outside--if they can cope with the stress of moving outside--unless the weather will be 100% perfect for them just in case I forget to check on them. I'm trying to err on the side of caution and do it the most conservative way possible just to be safe. Eventually, I'll get a feel for a subtle problem, but I don't have it now.

I really appreciate you input. Thank you.

 

[jajeanpierre]

This may end up being a steep learning curve.

I expect it will be.

 

[pantherchameleonpal]

All in all I hope they survive. I'm hoping for it

 

[jajeanpierre]

FWIW, I kept mine mid to upper 60's F day, upper 50's F night in summer, Lower 60's F day and into the 40's F night in winter. Basking bulbs dimmed way down in summer, but brighter in winter so they can heat up in the mornings.

I'm trying to find an actual weather patterns and history from where they are from. I asked Chris Anderson for a nearby city, but he said there really wasn't any city/town that would have the quads' true environment.

I know that in most places around the equator (having lived a lot of years in the tropics) that it is not so much a cool season or a hot season but a dry season or a rainy season.

I suspect that when he traveled to Cameroon, it was the dry season. I don't even know when the dry season in Cameroon, in the mountains where they live, actually is. I would guess winter simply because the hurricanes in the Atlantic originate over west Africa, but I think a lot further north than Cameroon. I'm looking into the weather from where they come from, but I don't know if it is even available.

 

[NHenn]

I also think cool at night is going to be my problem in the summer. I am thinking of getting a window a/c unit for the room the quads are in to cool it down into the 60s during the night. That's an easy fix.

This might be an easy fix for the temperatures but have you considered the humidity? Night time is when the humidity should be spiking as there is no longer anything to lower it. If you have an AC unit running that will strip the humidity in your room to zero very quickly.